macnorton

No I got what you were saying...I just looked at it from the technical angle. But you are spot on.

terrym4

At its PEAK, LD was in 2 million homes, so no title ever came close to selling a million copies. After 2 years, BD is in 10 million homes, so it already far more successful than LD ever was. I agree that unless everyone who now owns a TV eventually gets a 40+ inch HDTV, BD will never get the penetration of DVD, nor should it, but to question its short term survival seems ridiculous, when as pointed out LD survived 20 years with far fewer sales. I believe BD is here until something better comes along. Even I, who still has hundreds of LDs, replaced by DVD and now BD, will be satisfied with BD for years to come, unless I get a 100+ inch screen.

Doctorossi

You don't need a 40+ inch screen to fully enjoy the benefits of BD.

orangerunner

I believe Laserdisc failed because the machines were very expensive compared to VHS, they were the same size as an LP record (not a good sign) , had to be flipped over and were not recordable.

I bought a LD in 1994 and loved the picture, sound, letterboxing and the extras which couldn't be found on VHS. I think I amassed about six Laserdiscs because I knew something better, resembling a CD in size, was just around the corner.

I think many consumers have the same fear of Blu-Ray. I don't know the figures but I think Blu-Ray has really benefitted from the PS3 compatability.

I suppose when prices on both the machines and the films get low enough people will eventually switch to Blu-Ray.

So far Blu-Ray has been disappointing as far as offering anything extra from the DVD other than better picture and sound. On the other hand, would people really want to spend good money to replace their DVD of "Waterboy" on Blu-Ray? Probably not.

That's where DVD really excelled. They re-released titles and gave people so much more than their VHS tape. People were happy to re-purchase titles they already had on VHS or rediscover films they didn't have because they got so much more for their money.
Blu-Ray doesn't offer that advantage to average person.

Blu-Ray will survive and have its place in the market but without a successful plan to entice people to re-purchase the library titles, I have a feeling it will be difficult to coast along on new release titles.

The Man with the Golden Doujinshi

I think it was Samsung that sent out an update CD to those that bought their players using a credit card.

Other than that, it shouldn't be a problem for the manufacturers to just send a box of update discs to the stores where people could pick them up for free.

Adam Tyner

I wouldn't say Laserdisc failed. Out-of-the-gate failures don't limp on for a couple of decades. It was just a completely different market. I'm not sure enough people even evaluated LD to be able to reject it like that. I say this as someone who grew up with an LD player all the way back in 1984.

Gizmo

You and I both know that will never happen.

Best Buy is already happily charging customers $29.99 for firmware updates:
http://consumerist.com/5122504/watch...ns-at-best-buy

bunkaroo

^^^

That is FUCKED UP. I don't even own the player and I feel like ending my shopping there over this. Of course I don't go there much anymore anyway, but still, that is despicable. I will be warning many people not to buy players there.

mijorico

But owning a larger display device does make it easier to notice the difference in picture quality. If I didn't have a 114" projection screen, I doubt I would have adopted Blu-Ray already. On a screen that size, the difference is much more noticeable than it would be on your more average-sized set.

Since the average person is probably only going to upgrade to an average size HDTV, I'm not so sure a huge portion of those consumers are going to feel the need to upgrade from DVD to Blu-Ray.

Gizmo

Not everyone knows how to make an ISO Disc, network their player, or have a CE mail out discs...so...kinda makes sense. But $30? Nahh

bunkaroo

Well something like the Panasonic player is much easier. Simply burn a data disc with the FRM file. Now if they want to charge $30 for unlimited firmware updates OK, but $30 a pop is robbery.

DVD Polizei

$170 Blu-ray player. $30 Firmware update. How many more "updates" will there be? If I was a new Blu-ray consumer, I'd tell Best Buy and Blu-ray to go fuck themselves.

orangerunner

You're right, failure isn't the right word. Just because Ferrari sells 500 cars a year doesn't make them a failure.

Laserdisc was a niche luxury item for people who really wanted the best picture & sound with all the extras. DVD just took the qualities of it and made it the mainstream standard.

I remember Siskel & Ebert were big advocates for this technology and it really was an amazing improvement over VHS tape.

I rented the Halloween Criterion Collection along with a player back in 1994 and didn't buy any pre-recorded VHS tapes after that. It was great to see it letterboxed in 2.35:1, which I had never seen before.

SPRBD

Really, you blame Blu-ray for this? Unlikely. I think you're just trying to stir up trouble. Again.

(yawn)

DVD Polizei

Blame Blu-ray? Read my statement again. I know you can't possibly believe Blu-ray has a problem nor can anyone or any entity which has Blu-ray on it have any sort of problem, but get out of your hole, and peek outside for a second, please.

Look at my sig, genius. I embrace Blu-ray. But I'm not going to deny a tactic like this is certainly going to make somebody scratch their head--IN THIS ECONOMY, THANKS--that they will have to fork out $30 for every fucking upgrade.

Best Buy touted themselves as being the Blu-ray Leader, and now they're coming off as the Blu-ray Grifter, trying to squeeze every dime out of the unsuspecting Blu-ray consumer who doesn't know much. That's pathetic. That's unethical, and Best Buy can suck my asshole. Just gives me another reason to deal with Amazon more, and request price matches.

pro-bassoonist

This is true!

Furthermore, the distribution network LD had wasn't even close to that of Blu-ray. Aside from three markets - Germany, France, and England, where there was somewhat of an LD selection, the rest of Europe was simply a niche within a niche. Even Holland, a market where importing from the US was a near cult hobby, was in a terrible condition.

With other words, trying to even suggest that Blu-ray would be an LD-esque, or close to LD-esque format is as naive of a theory as they come. Here's a prediction that I would make for those who wish to argue towards the end of 2009 (feel free to archive it):

Any serious distributor that leaves its business centered around DVD-only, and does not at least attempt to map out a Blu-ray transition of some sort in 2009, will be severely hit by the restructuring of the market. Pure DVD-only labels will have an enormously difficult time surviving, and the overwhelming majority of them will likely collapse.

Pro-B

SPRBD

I read your statement. You said "I'd tell Best Buy and Blu-ray to go fuck themselves." I understand the hate for Best Buy, but not Blu-ray. The fact that machines can have firmware updates applied is a good thing. Best Buy charging people $30 a pop is the bad thing.

And if you read the article which pissed you off so much, you'd see that the upgrades were not needed! So now Blu-ray gets a shovel full of hate from you because some lame company is charging for a service which isn't even needed?!?

And why are you accusing me that I "can't possibly believe Blu-ray has a problem"? What bullshit! I never said, or even implied, such a thing. Blu-ray, like most products, has it's share of problems. This just isn't one of them.

Man A: "I just bought a new Honda and my dealership tried to sell me an extended warrantee which I didn't need"
Man B: "That's horse-shit! I'd tell your Honda dealer, and cars in general, to go fuck themselves!"

DVD Polizei

I never said firmware was bad. ???

To think consumers are NOT going to associate Blu-ray with costly upgrades, is rather naive. That's why the potential for consumers to give the middle-finger to not only Best Buy...but Blu-ray, is very likely.

I'm not sure how you think consumers are not going to associate the two.

Best Buy is once again showing how cosmically stupid they are.

Once again, I don't HATE Blu-ray, but IF I was a new consumer just coming into this new HD thing, I'd be rather cautious, because of needing to fork out more cash for simply getting an "updated" player. As far as I know, I'll have paid $1000 for my $170 player, just because it "needed" upgrades. Yeah, you bet I'd tell Blu-ray to fuck off.

The Man with the Golden Doujinshi

I don't know why it can't happen.

The closes Best Buy is over 100 miles away so I only have Circuit City in my city, until it's gone which means Target is it's only replacement so I had no idea what they were doing already.

I don't see why if companies, like Ubuntu and AOL, can send out free cds in the mail to people, why they can't just send a bunch to a store. I don't know what's so unrealistic about that.

Other than that, they might be able to get firmware upgrades packaged with popular movies, like Microsoft does with popular games. The only downside to that is if the format takes off and there's tons of small companies putting out players, they aren't going to get updates since we can't just put everyone on the disc.

I'm guessing, and once again not 100% sure since I don't have a Best Buy near me, is that they're just making the discs themselves and not getting a shipment from the manufacturer. If that's the case, there still isn't any reason why they can't just ship them and give out for free.

Personally, I'd just be happy with free discs at stores. Other than that, if someone can't figure it out, then they need to put some effort into it.

Aren't upgrades required as keys are cracked, or for some features on the disc?

From what I recall, if keys are cracked, updates are required and players with cracked keys or the inevitable random mishap with a player that has nothing wrong with it, the player gets bricked.

Gizmo

Even if the CEs will mail you a firmware disc, you may be sitting on a movie you can't play for 1-2 weeks. Consumers won't stand for that. It needs to be work right away.

SPRBD

I didn't mean to imply that upgrades weren't needed. The story that some people were referencing, about Best Buy charging $30 to install a firmware upgrade to get certain movies to play then went on to say that those movies did not require a firmware upgrade.

I agree that it would be nice if manifacturers provided upgrade discs for free. That failing, perhaps they could enter into a deal with Blockbuster to provide those discs for a nominal fee or as a bonus for renting a Blu-ray.

pro-bassoonist

No, they are not. If this was the case then the studios would have been directly involved with the hardware manufacturers to ensure compatibility. On the contrary, there have been two studios only that I know for a fact have been keeping track on updates.

To put it simply, firmware upgrades is yet another issue that isn't an issue at all (whether Best Buy wants to charge for it or not)

Pro-B

DVD Polizei

If anything, Best Buy should be educating their consumers by providing the upgrades for FREE and yes, even taking the time to show consumers how to update their machines (instead of calling people stupid all the time, start educating the bastards, and instead of trying to take advantage of their ignorance, start being trustworthy).

Charging a nominal $5 fee for the disc or something, I guess that's ok, but $30 is just ridiculous. Also, they should have just contacted the manufacturers in the first place so they could have scheduled a regular shipment of firmware updates on discs, thereby placing no cost on Best Buy at all. Hell, the advertisement to consumers their "FREE update disc is available at Best Buy" with a simple postcard would be a great campaign to get consumers into the B&Ms.

But no. They all have to act like shitheads.

Gizmo

Why would any store do this? Its not their problem it's the CEs and Studios problem. They can't seem to agree on making hardware that plays every title 100% and the studios don't want to test each disc on all the players available. I would never expect Best Buy to offer free updates utilizing their employee's time, or teach consumers how to do it themselves. You do know they charge you to defrag your hard drive if you bring it in, right?

Gizmo

And you are 100% wrong about that. You expect consumers to keep the same firmware out of the box for several years while discs pile up that don't play? Not everyone knows how to network their player or burn an ISO. They want to put the movie in and watch. If that becomes an issue, they will either buy a new BD player or go back to DVD.