The Shining Discussion -- questions, theories, spoilers, etc.
04-24-05, 04:51 PM
#102
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Originally Posted by JCFantasy23
I read somewhere that when Danny came to the hotel, his shining ability sort of wakened the hotel somehow. The cook did sense things about the hotel, but nothing too obvious, as if it was resting. Not sure if this theory holds water or not, but I always found it interesting.
08-19-06, 11:43 AM
#104
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"The Shining" is my favorite horror movie of all time. I watch it on Halloween night every year.
Just to add a little to the discussion, I was recently in Estes Park, CO, home to the real "Overbrook Hotel" a/k/a The Stanley Hotel. King was staying at the Stanley when he wrote "The Shining". Supposedly the book was the result of a drunken night in the hotel. King filmed his miniseries at the Stanley. The story they tell in Estes is that Kubrick hated the screenplay King put together and King didn't like what Kubrik was doing with his book. They parted ways and the movie was made.
I agree the movie can be confusing. In my opinion it is best experienced instead of overthought. I saw the miniseries when it originally ran. I just added it to my Netflix queue and look forward to seeing it again.
I saw the movie in HD on HDNet movies a couple of weeks ago and it looked and sounded great. I think it is one that is slated to be released on HD-DVD at some point and it should be impressive.
Just to add a little to the discussion, I was recently in Estes Park, CO, home to the real "Overbrook Hotel" a/k/a The Stanley Hotel. King was staying at the Stanley when he wrote "The Shining". Supposedly the book was the result of a drunken night in the hotel. King filmed his miniseries at the Stanley. The story they tell in Estes is that Kubrick hated the screenplay King put together and King didn't like what Kubrik was doing with his book. They parted ways and the movie was made.
I agree the movie can be confusing. In my opinion it is best experienced instead of overthought. I saw the miniseries when it originally ran. I just added it to my Netflix queue and look forward to seeing it again.
I saw the movie in HD on HDNet movies a couple of weeks ago and it looked and sounded great. I think it is one that is slated to be released on HD-DVD at some point and it should be impressive.
10-05-06, 09:09 AM
#113
I always found it more of a nice visual paradox more than anything. Something kubrick could show and instantly give the viewer a clue without having to deal with alot of verbal explanation about the backstory.
But I guess it alludes to the fact that the evil that resides in the hotel, those grounds, that place is what has taken over Jack's soul. The caretaker, "the evil spirit," is in the foreground, presiding over the rest of the staff, and at the end it is the image of Jack who has been posessed by that spirit.
But I guess it alludes to the fact that the evil that resides in the hotel, those grounds, that place is what has taken over Jack's soul. The caretaker, "the evil spirit," is in the foreground, presiding over the rest of the staff, and at the end it is the image of Jack who has been posessed by that spirit.
10-05-06, 09:30 AM
#115
DVD Talk Limited Edition
I think the following, from an interview with Kubrick, explains it:
So you don't regard the apparitions as merely a projection of his mental state?
For the purposes of telling the story, my view is that the paranormal is genuine. Jack's mental state serves only to prepare him for the murder, and to temporarily mislead the audience.
So you don't regard the apparitions as merely a projection of his mental state?
For the purposes of telling the story, my view is that the paranormal is genuine. Jack's mental state serves only to prepare him for the murder, and to temporarily mislead the audience.
10-05-06, 09:32 AM
#116
Suspended
Originally Posted by Bobby Shalom
I always found it more of a nice visual paradox more than anything. Something kubrick could show and instantly give the viewer a clue without having to deal with alot of verbal explanation about the backstory.
But I guess it alludes to the fact that the evil that resides in the hotel, those grounds, that place is what has taken over Jack's soul. The caretaker, "the evil spirit," is in the foreground, presiding over the rest of the staff, and at the end it is the image of Jack who has been posessed by that spirit.
But I guess it alludes to the fact that the evil that resides in the hotel, those grounds, that place is what has taken over Jack's soul. The caretaker, "the evil spirit," is in the foreground, presiding over the rest of the staff, and at the end it is the image of Jack who has been posessed by that spirit.
Stephen King's originality was transposing the same basic premise to an isolated snow-bound summer resort high in the mountains and extending the original 4-week story to a whole winter season. Oh yes, and also adding a family history of child abuse, personality problems and a child with psychic powers.
The original (maybe invented) Amityville Horror story, the Stephen King novel and the Stanley Kubrick film all derive their power from the belief in the existence of evil as a supernatural force residing in a particular location which no amount of reasoning can overcome or dislodge. This is a very primal ingredient in the history of scary story-telling since times immemorial. One convenient way of linking this chill-inducing belief to some form of plausible contemporary reality is to have the house (or hotel) built on an "ancient Indian burial ground", a plot device that was also used in the "Poltergeist" films.
This particular element links the film's story to the traditional "fear of the dead" stories, be they of vampires, mummies, zombies, garden-variety ghosts or man-made monsters like Frankenstein's monster (which is made from human cadavers) but it also adds an element of the guilt modern man feels for having desecrated the harmony that came before him, be it nature itself or the wisdom of the peaceful earlier Indian inhabitants of the land.
If you must write a horror story, there is no easier way than to push the "fear of the dead" or "fear of evil" buttons and to possibly link them together in a mysterious "dead = ancient evil" equation, which always sells theatre seats. Maybe not everybody is afraid of "evil", but most everybody is afraid of dying.
P.S.: In his rambling 1981 essay "Danse Macabre" on the history of horror (1950-1980), Stephen King went ballistic discussing the popularity of the "Amityville Horror" phenonemon. He essentially said it was a bad story and a bad film and the only reason it had viewers audibly gulping in the theatres is that the film must have encapsulated all the insecurities of first-time home buyers across America, a realization he came to when he heard a lady next to him in the theatre whisper to her companion: "Think of the bills!" as the house self-destructed (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danse_Macabre_%28book%29 ) For a concise history of haunted house stories: http://www.sfsite.com/fsf/2000/eh0005.htm .
Last edited by baracine; 10-07-06 at 10:09 PM.
10-05-06, 11:43 AM
#117
There are usually two main interpretations.
This site explains them both well. Scroll all the way down to the end of the second page.
http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/faq/h.../shining2.html
This site explains them both well. Scroll all the way down to the end of the second page.
http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/faq/h.../shining2.html
10-05-06, 02:28 PM
#118
I looked at the picture as an indication of the ever continuing presence of evil in the hotel. The character of the caretaker was forever damned to be cursed. Maybe the character of Jack was one of the people that orignally built the hotel on the Indian burial ground and subsequently was damned to live life after life being the caretaker and being forever tortured by the spirits of the dead. The picture is just showing a snapshot of his previous life and his eternal damnation. This is maybe why Grady says to him "You are the caretaker...you've always been the caretaker."
I guess at the end of the day each person has a different view on the picture and i guess each is just as right as any other.
I guess at the end of the day each person has a different view on the picture and i guess each is just as right as any other.
10-05-06, 03:51 PM
#119
Suspended
Originally Posted by james2025a
I looked at the picture as an indication of the ever continuing presence of evil in the hotel. The character of the caretaker was forever damned to be cursed. Maybe the character of Jack was one of the people that orignally built the hotel on the Indian burial ground and subsequently was damned to live life after life being the caretaker and being forever tortured by the spirits of the dead. The picture is just showing a snapshot of his previous life and his eternal damnation. This is maybe why Grady says to him "You are the caretaker...you've always been the caretaker."
I guess at the end of the day each person has a different view on the picture and i guess each is just as right as any other.
I guess at the end of the day each person has a different view on the picture and i guess each is just as right as any other.
Spoiler:
Last edited by baracine; 10-05-06 at 05:58 PM.
10-05-06, 11:13 PM
#121
DVD Talk Limited Edition
^^found it... http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/faq/index.html#slot3
Boy, where would we be without the internet?
Boy, where would we be without the internet?
10-06-06, 02:11 AM
#123
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Originally Posted by MartinBlank
What's up with the guy in the bear suit (or what ever it is) and the other guy in the bedroom?
10-06-06, 08:20 AM
#124
Suspended
Originally Posted by MartinBlank
^^found it... http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/faq/index.html#slot3
Boy, where would we be without the internet?
Boy, where would we be without the internet?
Wendy is shocked, at this crucial moment, by the incongruity of the scene, not so much the suggested oral sex as the time-warp factor and the fact that there are people or ghosts in the hotel, going about their party business as if she's not even there, and that she shouldn't be seeing this. It also suggests a relationship where one partner is clearly dominating the other, which is reminiscent of Wendy's subservient status to her husband.
My personal interpretation is that Kubrick's imagination is very active, improvisational, sexually-oriented and musically-motivated, not to mention incongruous at all times, and he maybe cooked up this scene while toying with absurd ideas and references to the novel which details a homosexual encounter between two guests, which is hard to show in a film like his and would probably have shocked the bejeesus out of audiences at the time. He was maybe wondering how to show them going at it "doggie style" - as he would later be allowed to do in "Eyes Wide Shut" - while whistling America/The Captain & Tennille's 1974 hit "Muskrat Love". You know, one of the worst drunken love songs ever written, that goes...
Nibbling on bacon, chewin on cheese
Sammy says to susie honey, would you please be my missus?
And she say yes
With her kisses
And now hes ticklin her fancy
Rubbin her toes
Muzzle to muzzle, now anything goes
As they wriggle, and sue starts to giggle
And they whirled and they twirled and they tangoed
Singin and jingin the jango
Floatin like the heavens above
It looks like muskrat love
Sammy says to susie honey, would you please be my missus?
And she say yes
With her kisses
And now hes ticklin her fancy
Rubbin her toes
Muzzle to muzzle, now anything goes
As they wriggle, and sue starts to giggle
And they whirled and they twirled and they tangoed
Singin and jingin the jango
Floatin like the heavens above
It looks like muskrat love
Nutty, isn't it?
Last edited by baracine; 10-06-06 at 11:09 AM.
10-06-06, 10:54 AM
#125
Suspended
From Q&A on Kubrick's "authorized" site ( http://kubrickfilms.warnerbros.com/m.../mainmenu.html ):
July 4th = Independence Day = A day when it would be logical for the hotel to host a ball = The day the Torrance character assumes his true self and "independence" from normal society by becoming an animalistic, mysoginistic, racist, violent, murdering and possessive monster and part of the ancient evil that has always resided at the hotel.
Also, assuming that America was built on the graveyard of native peoples' aspirations (like the hotel which is its metaphor), the day America was created and put an end to the Indians as a nation.
What does the end shot of a picture of Jack Torrance at a 1921 July 4th party signify?
Similar to his somewhat mysterious and ambiguous ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey, this has been debated by Kubrick enthusiasts for years, and typically, Kubrick himself never gave a definitive answer, preferring to let audiences decide for themselves.
Probably the most logical interpretation is that it is the visual confirmation of Grady’s (Philip Stone) line to Jack Torrance (Jack Nicholson) in the red bathroom scene: "You’ve always been the caretaker." It also plays on the theme that Evil has always existed and always will.
Similar to his somewhat mysterious and ambiguous ending to 2001: A Space Odyssey, this has been debated by Kubrick enthusiasts for years, and typically, Kubrick himself never gave a definitive answer, preferring to let audiences decide for themselves.
Probably the most logical interpretation is that it is the visual confirmation of Grady’s (Philip Stone) line to Jack Torrance (Jack Nicholson) in the red bathroom scene: "You’ve always been the caretaker." It also plays on the theme that Evil has always existed and always will.
Also, assuming that America was built on the graveyard of native peoples' aspirations (like the hotel which is its metaphor), the day America was created and put an end to the Indians as a nation.
Last edited by baracine; 10-06-06 at 11:05 AM.