Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
04-26-23, 06:47 PM
#551
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Baldwin should have inspected the gun to see if it was actually loaded or not. That's my assertion. That is absolutely not what others are asserting. Read what was written again. One person even made the asinine comment to inspect each and every round.
Baldwin, and any actor for that matter, should have absolutely checked the gun if he was told it was unloaded. Surely if they are being asked to operate a gun for their job they should know how to do so safely, right? And was he told the gun was unloaded or was he simply told the gun was cold? Is there a difference?
And while it may not be technically "unsafe", there's a reason that people that actually know there way around a firearm don't point a gun at someone, even if it is unloaded, much less pull the trigger while pointing at someone. And, by your own account, Baldwin didn't know the gun was unloaded. He had simply been told it was unloaded. He did not handle the gun safely. Not by any widely accepted rules of firearm handling.
Baldwin, and any actor for that matter, should have absolutely checked the gun if he was told it was unloaded. Surely if they are being asked to operate a gun for their job they should know how to do so safely, right? And was he told the gun was unloaded or was he simply told the gun was cold? Is there a difference?
And while it may not be technically "unsafe", there's a reason that people that actually know there way around a firearm don't point a gun at someone, even if it is unloaded, much less pull the trigger while pointing at someone. And, by your own account, Baldwin didn't know the gun was unloaded. He had simply been told it was unloaded. He did not handle the gun safely. Not by any widely accepted rules of firearm handling.
04-26-23, 07:27 PM
#552
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
How is that asinine? You want Baldwin to check the gun but not the rounds?
04-27-23, 04:24 PM
#553
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Your assertion is 100% incorrect. Performers are not supposed to perform personal inspections of firearms that they have been told are "cold." Simple as that. He wasn't supposed to check the gun. That is someone else's job. It's not his job to climb up on scaffolding and adjust the lights. It's not his job to pick up a hammer and help build sets. He is a member of the SAG union, and the union came out and said that actors are not firearm experts and they are not supposed to, or required to, perform the role of firearm expert on sets.
And it is interesting that no one has yet answered the question of what exactly a "cold" gun is.
04-27-23, 08:31 PM
#555
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Nobody is talking about Baldwin climbing up on scaffolding and checking the lights. Nobody is talking about him building sets. We are talking about him taking the 10 seconds to check that a tool that he was supposed to use to do his job was actually safe to use. We are talking about him taking the 10 seconds to check that a gun that he was told was "cold" isn't in fact actually loaded before he goes waving it around in someone's face during a rehearsal.
One would think after the numerous incidents on that set previously, that someone like Alec would maybe think to be even more careful that he normally was. Especially if he holds extra responsibility from being a producer.
I don't care if it was his "job" or not,
the gun was in his hand. He should have checked it.
He should know how to handle it safely. Just as if the scene required him to use a hammer. He should know how to do so safely. The excuse of "it wasn't my job" or "I was just doing what I was told" doesn't fly here. He may not be criminally responsible for Halyna's death, but she's still dead and Alec Baldwin killed her.
you have heard of people ACCIDENTALLY killing people?
It is not unsafe or dangerous to point an unloaded gun at someone and pull the trigger.
And it is interesting that no one has yet answered the question of what exactly a "cold" gun is.
Let me ask you something.
When you go to the gas station, do you pump the liquid coming out of the hose directly into your gas tank, or do you perform some sort of inspection to ensure that it is in fact gasoline? After all, why should you believe that the gas station has gasoline in their underground tanks and not some other liquid? I mean, you just live your life everyday taking other people's word for the fact that things are what they say they are, right? When you order food in a restaurant, do you perform tests on it to confirm it is not poisoned?
The person who's responsibility is was to make sure the gun was safe told Baldwin it was safe. How is that not simple enough for you to understand? He wasn't supposed to double-check the gun. It's his job to believe what he was told. Just like when you do a hundred things everyday, you do them with no thought about whether it is safe or not because there is a system in place that tells us it safe, and we either trust that and live our lives, or lock ourselves away and piss in jars.
The following users liked this post:
Why So Blu? (04-27-23)
04-27-23, 09:37 PM
#556
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Nobody is talking about Baldwin climbing up on scaffolding and checking the lights. Nobody is talking about him building sets. We are talking about him taking the 10 seconds to check that a tool that he was supposed to use to do his job was actually safe to use. We are talking about him taking the 10 seconds to check that a gun that he was told was "cold" isn't in fact actually loaded before he goes waving it around in someone's face during a rehearsal. One would think after the numerous incidents on that set previously, that someone like Alec would maybe think to be even more careful that he normally was. Especially if he holds extra responsibility from being a producer. I don't care if it was his "job" or not, the gun was in his hand. He should have checked it. He should know how to handle it safely. Just as if the scene required him to use a hammer. He should know how to do so safely. The excuse of "it wasn't my job" or "I was just doing what I was told" doesn't fly here. He may not be criminally responsible for Halyna's death, but she's still dead and Alec Baldwin killed her.
And it is interesting that no one has yet answered the question of what exactly a "cold" gun is.
And it is interesting that no one has yet answered the question of what exactly a "cold" gun is.
What would Baldwin know about gun and ammo handling? He's no prop or weapon's master. That's why they have people whose job it is to check that shit out. I don't always agree with Dooku's pedantry on some issues, but he and others here are right about this one. If stars were trained property masters then what good would hiring one for feature films do? Nothing, because it would be a non-existent job title.
It's like pyro-technicians who work on films and for stage shows. When Kiss sets off their pyro should the band be aware of how that shit works? No, it's left to the professionals. They just have to follow their marks/instructions so as not to walk into a flashpot. Same principle. The property/gun master onset should have checked and double checked that the gun was properly rigged to not fire actual projectiles.
*Speaking of pyro, the band Rammstein are all licensed pyro-technicians, so they can also oversee, advise, and handle the dangerous materials used for their shows. The distinction is that they are certified and trained to do so in the eyes of the law.
Last edited by Why So Blu?; 04-27-23 at 09:47 PM.
04-27-23, 10:37 PM
#557
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Actors should not have to be firearms experts. That's what prop masters and armorers are for. You don't want actors messing around and "inspecting" the guns. You don't know how qualified they are, and it's a liability issue if their interference is the cause of a malfunction after it leaves the possession of the armorer.
The following users liked this post:
Why So Blu? (04-27-23)
04-28-23, 06:52 AM
#558
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
You always treat every gun like it is loaded at all times, even if you're sure it's not.
But film-making is a special circumstance where, in order to tell a believable story, guns will be used in ways that are not in line with the normal safe handling of firearms.
Which is why you have firearms experts on film and tv productions whose responsibility is to load, unload, inspect, and handle the guns when they're not being used so accidents like this don't happen. Unfortunately, accidents still happen as we saw here and on the set of The Crow.
04-28-23, 10:48 AM
#559
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Which is why you have firearms experts on film and tv productions whose responsibility is to load, unload, inspect, and handle the guns when they're not being used so accidents like this don't happen. Unfortunately, accidents still happen as we saw here and on the set of The Crow.
04-28-23, 10:51 AM
#560
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
It almost might make you wonder if there was a giant media company with an agenda to push about Baldwin.
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6325528258112
https://www.foxnews.com/video/6325528258112
04-28-23, 11:23 AM
#561
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Probably makes her family feel so much better knowing that.
Indeed. It's not like there were multiple incidents on set BEFORE Baldwin shot her.
He was just doing his job. There's a great rationale for not being culpable for killing another human being.
Again. I'm sure that provides so much comfort to her family. The fact that he didn't take the 10 seconds to check if the gun was actually loaded because he was told not to. I'm sure Baldwin isn't kicking himself for not checking because that wasn't his job. It was someone else's job. Someone that had already failed to do their job correctly on multiple occasions on that set. But, by all means, don't take the 10 seconds to check because it isn't your job.
Sure doesn't seem like he handled the gun safely, now does it?
In this case it was.
Indeed. It's not like there were multiple incidents on set BEFORE Baldwin shot her.
what the fuck is "should have"? he was not supposed to check the gun, he was not supposed to check the gun, he was not supposed to check the gun, he was not supposed to check the gun, he was not supposed to check the gun, he was not supposed to check the gun, he was not supposed to check the gun,he was not supposed to check the gun
04-28-23, 11:28 AM
#562
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
What would Baldwin know about gun and ammo handling? He's no prop or weapon's master. That's why they have people whose job it is to check that shit out. I don't always agree with Dooku's pedantry on some issues, but he and others here are right about this one. If stars were trained property masters then what good would hiring one for feature films do? Nothing, because it would be a non-existent job title.
04-28-23, 12:00 PM
#563
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
I'm not talking about being a prop or weapons master. I'm talking about having a working knowledge of the most basic safety rules with regards to the tools that one uses to do their job. If they expected an actor to drive a car in the course of their work, shouldn't they know how to do so safely? Personally, if I was handed a gun and told it was unloaded, I would want to make sure myself. Why not give the actors that knowledge, or at the very least have the armorers demonstrate to the actor that the weapon is, in fact, empty.
What if you've never handled a gun before? How would you know what to look for? It's either loaded or unloaded. Now a prop gun has "blank" ammunition that can still kill you if it's fired close to you, because it could have debris. If it has an actual projectile lodged in the barrel how is an actor supposed to know this and what are they supposed to look for? Maybe production should have paid for the actors to go to a weapons bootcamp or something? Maybe all productions should have inclusive weapons bootcamps for their productions, so this doesn't happen.
The only actor out there that I would even consider giving credit for knowing how to handle weapons like a professional is Keanu Reeves. I've seen his live ammunition training videos for the John Wick franchise.
*as far as your driving the car analogy, no, that's why they have professional and stunt drivers. This is Hollywood. They have someone that does the job an actor cannot or does not know how to do outside of their actual abilities. If Baldwin drives himself to the set then that's where it ends. He has to obey basic speed laws to arrive/leave the set safely. I've spent time on a set before and there are designated people for designated services, or at least there should be. Unless it's a no-budget production, then it's more dangerous. Rust had a designated person in charge of weapons that screwed up majorly.
Last edited by Why So Blu?; 04-28-23 at 12:07 PM.
04-28-23, 02:02 PM
#564
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Unless he handles weapons on a regular basis in his personal life, why would you expect him to know how to handle/what to look for in a "prop" gun being used in a movie? His job is to make it look good while the camera is rolling. He's an actor, not a gunsmith/armorer/property master.
What if you've never handled a gun before? How would you know what to look for? It's either loaded or unloaded. Now a prop gun has "blank" ammunition that can still kill you if it's fired close to you, because it could have debris. If it has an actual projectile lodged in the barrel how is an actor supposed to know this and what are they supposed to look for? Maybe production should have paid for the actors to go to a weapons bootcamp or something? Maybe all productions should have inclusive weapons bootcamps for their productions, so this doesn't happen.
*as far as your driving the car analogy, no, that's why they have professional and stunt drivers. This is Hollywood. They have someone that does the job an actor cannot or does not know how to do outside of their actual abilities. If Baldwin drives himself to the set then that's where it ends. He has to obey basic speed laws to arrive/leave the set safely. I've spent time on a set before and there are designated people for designated services, or at least there should be. Unless it's a no-budget production, then it's more dangerous.
Agreed that the armorer screwed up. But she wasn't the only one. Baldwin and the AD both share some of the blame..
04-28-23, 02:15 PM
#565
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
We're close to demanding a better understanding of firearm safety from actors than from cops. Which, granted, is a low bar.
04-28-23, 07:35 PM
#566
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
These are the industry-wide firearm safety standards agreed to by labor and management:
https://www.csatf.org/wp-content/upl...01FIREARMS.pdf
https://www.csatf.org/wp-content/upl...AMMUNITION.pdf
You can see that all of the responsibility lies with the property master or designated safety agents (which can include the First A.D.). There's nothing in there about actors must inspect the weapons.
Rust's First A.D. already pleaded no contest to negligent use of a deadly weapon (he's the one who declared "cold gun" on-set and handed it to Baldwin). The armorer has still been charged with involuntary manslaughter. The producers (including Baldwin) are liable in a financial sense, and they've already settled with Hutchins's family.
https://www.csatf.org/wp-content/upl...01FIREARMS.pdf
https://www.csatf.org/wp-content/upl...AMMUNITION.pdf
You can see that all of the responsibility lies with the property master or designated safety agents (which can include the First A.D.). There's nothing in there about actors must inspect the weapons.
Rust's First A.D. already pleaded no contest to negligent use of a deadly weapon (he's the one who declared "cold gun" on-set and handed it to Baldwin). The armorer has still been charged with involuntary manslaughter. The producers (including Baldwin) are liable in a financial sense, and they've already settled with Hutchins's family.
The following 3 users liked this post by TheBang:
06-14-23, 11:15 PM
#567
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
‘Rust’ armorer likely was hungover when she loaded the gun used in the fatal movie set shooting, prosecutors say
Not sure how they can prove she was impaired while loading the gun.
The armorer on the set of the movie “Rust” likely was hungover when she loaded a prop gun used by actor Alec Baldwin that fired a live round of ammunition during a rehearsal, killing cinematographer Halyna Hutchins, prosecutors said in a court filing.Witnesses told investigators Hannah Gutierrez Reed “was drinking heavily and smoking marijuana in the evenings during the shooting of Rust,” prosecutors said in the Friday filing.
“It is likely that Defendant Gutierrez was hung over when she inserted a live bullet into a gun that she knew was going to be used at some point by an actor while filming a shooting scene with other actors and crew members,” prosecutors said in the filing in response to a May motion by Gutierrez Reed’s attorneys to dismiss an indictment against her.
“It is likely that Defendant Gutierrez was hung over when she inserted a live bullet into a gun that she knew was going to be used at some point by an actor while filming a shooting scene with other actors and crew members,” prosecutors said in the filing in response to a May motion by Gutierrez Reed’s attorneys to dismiss an indictment against her.
06-14-23, 11:28 PM
#568
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Whoa. The armorer loaded a live round? I was always under the impression someone had been fucking around with the gun, during a break, and left a live round in it.
If that IS the case, that armorer is truly (and should be) fucked.
If that IS the case, that armorer is truly (and should be) fucked.
06-15-23, 04:59 AM
#569
Moderator
Thread Starter
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Hannah's attorney, Jason Bowles, tells TMZ, "The prosecution has so mishandled this case and the case is so weak that they are now resorting to character assassination tactics to further taint the jury pool. This investigation and prosecution has not been about seeking Justice; for them it’s been about finding a convenient scapegoat."
06-15-23, 06:53 AM
#570
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Why exactly would there even be live rounds on the set to be loaded?
06-15-23, 07:32 AM
#571
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
It sounds like it was a total shit-show, with live rounds possibly working their way in from the company they bought the dummy rounds from, the armorer's father or the armorer herself.
How this ever got blamed on Baldwin is beyond me. There was obviously severe negligence from everyone responsible for making sure those guns were safe (and that isn't Baldwin).
How this ever got blamed on Baldwin is beyond me. There was obviously severe negligence from everyone responsible for making sure those guns were safe (and that isn't Baldwin).
06-15-23, 07:40 AM
#572
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
If that is the case, investigators would have likely asked Gutierrez-Reed to take a UA the day of the shooting. Marijuana and alcohol would have still been in her system.
I was under the impression that Gutierrez-Reed wasn’t even on set when the accident happened so I don’t know if they figure she loaded the gun a day or two prior to the shooting or what. Depending on the timeline, it could have still been in her system even after a day or two.
I was under the impression that Gutierrez-Reed wasn’t even on set when the accident happened so I don’t know if they figure she loaded the gun a day or two prior to the shooting or what. Depending on the timeline, it could have still been in her system even after a day or two.
08-16-23, 10:47 AM
#573
DVD Talk Ruler
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Looks like a secondary analysis has determined that Baldwin DID pull the trigger so he may be on the hot seat again. I have no doubt he pulled the trigger and that he knows he pulled the trigger. He's a very well known liar. But that doesn't mean he should be responsible for this for the reasons already mentioned. I wouldn't mind him getting slapped around a little for lying to investigators though.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/16/enter...win/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/16/enter...win/index.html
08-16-23, 12:35 PM
#574
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
Once again, while it IS the actual gun that they're testing, this time, it's NOT the gun as it was on the set:
The new testing by examiners in New Mexico was conducted using a replacement “hammer, trigger/sear and bolt,” according to their report, rather than the gun’s original components. The weapon – broken during tests run by the FBI and inoperable when Forensic Science Services got it – then was returned to operable condition.
Seems like a pretty easy thing to argue, in court. The weapon was rebuilt, so of course it should function normally. How does that, in any way, indicate that the gun, as it was on the set, was functioning normally?
It's like saying 'I hit that pedestrian because my brakes failed,' and the prosecution saying 'we rebuilt the brakes on your car, and they worked perfectly.'
The new testing by examiners in New Mexico was conducted using a replacement “hammer, trigger/sear and bolt,” according to their report, rather than the gun’s original components. The weapon – broken during tests run by the FBI and inoperable when Forensic Science Services got it – then was returned to operable condition.
Seems like a pretty easy thing to argue, in court. The weapon was rebuilt, so of course it should function normally. How does that, in any way, indicate that the gun, as it was on the set, was functioning normally?
It's like saying 'I hit that pedestrian because my brakes failed,' and the prosecution saying 'we rebuilt the brakes on your car, and they worked perfectly.'
The following users liked this post:
ntnon (08-17-23)
08-16-23, 12:41 PM
#575
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Alec Baldwin accidentally kills DP with prop gun, director shot as well
I suspect that Baldwin did pull the trigger unintentionally. It's a revolver, and if the hammer was cocked (as I suspect), then it could easily been a "hair trigger" that fired with the slightest of jostling. Certainly an egregious mistake, even with an actual blank loaded, but again, not criminal for an actor handed what is declared to be a "cold gun".