Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
06-14-23, 07:00 PM
#101
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
It's interesting how the prices of tickets have just exploded over the past couple of decades. I think that's the issue people have, moreso than the Ticketmaster fees. At the end of the day, it's an aggregate cost.
I mean, shit, when I was back in high school a concert ticket might cost twenty-five dollars. Thirty if they were pushing it. And it was general admission, so the seating and floor was first come, first served.
Now the ticket for a same or similar act the same or similar venue is going to be over one hundred dollars. Then you're going to pay an eighty dollar "convenience fee" on top of that. And a "venue fee" of ten dollars. Then you're going to pay twenty or thirty dollars for parking. (Back three decades ago, parking was usually free, or had a one or two dollar fee tacked onto the ticket.) And instead of that twenty-five dollar ticket, it turns into a two hundred fifty dollar ticket. Or a three or four or five hundred dollar ticket if you want a decent seat or the general admission floor. And if you want to buy beer, it's going to be six to ten dollars for a bottle poured into a plastic cup.
It seems to me like there's a lot of profiteering going on between the promoters, the ticket brokers, the artists, and the venues. Somehow, thirty years ago, they could put on concerts and still make money without charging all of these ridiculous fees and parking charges and exorbitant concession prices.
I mean, shit, when I was back in high school a concert ticket might cost twenty-five dollars. Thirty if they were pushing it. And it was general admission, so the seating and floor was first come, first served.
Now the ticket for a same or similar act the same or similar venue is going to be over one hundred dollars. Then you're going to pay an eighty dollar "convenience fee" on top of that. And a "venue fee" of ten dollars. Then you're going to pay twenty or thirty dollars for parking. (Back three decades ago, parking was usually free, or had a one or two dollar fee tacked onto the ticket.) And instead of that twenty-five dollar ticket, it turns into a two hundred fifty dollar ticket. Or a three or four or five hundred dollar ticket if you want a decent seat or the general admission floor. And if you want to buy beer, it's going to be six to ten dollars for a bottle poured into a plastic cup.
It seems to me like there's a lot of profiteering going on between the promoters, the ticket brokers, the artists, and the venues. Somehow, thirty years ago, they could put on concerts and still make money without charging all of these ridiculous fees and parking charges and exorbitant concession prices.
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story (06-14-23)
06-15-23, 06:51 AM
#102
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
I'm not a big concert-goer but I see a lot of theater. If I want to deal with convenience but excessive Ticketmaster fees (and yes, tacking on 1/4 of a ticket price or more for "processing" is excessive), I'll use them. Otherwise I'll go straight to the box office and get the ticket without any of those fees (and yet, those tickets have to be "processed" too...interesting).
The biggest issue for me with Ticketmaster is that "1 billion to fight automation". I will admit I don't know anything about the technical side of ticket sales, but I can't believe there isn't some CAPTCHA/account verification/number of allowed ticket purchases combination that couldn't severely limit the bots. My guess is that there is at least a part of their business that loves to see the frenzy.
The biggest issue for me with Ticketmaster is that "1 billion to fight automation". I will admit I don't know anything about the technical side of ticket sales, but I can't believe there isn't some CAPTCHA/account verification/number of allowed ticket purchases combination that couldn't severely limit the bots. My guess is that there is at least a part of their business that loves to see the frenzy.
06-15-23, 08:43 AM
#103
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
The simple fact is this : The best argument against Ticketmaster pleading expenses is that it costs the same to distribute a $50 nosebleed seat as it does a $700 floor seat, so why charge 10 times more in service fees for the better seat? That's like a Shell station charging 10 times for gas if you put it in a Lamborghini than in a Hyundai. I will defend Ticketmaster when someone like John Oliver points out correctly that Ticketmaster can charge 50% or more in fees for a $25 lawn seat at a kids concert. I do understand that their service has some costs. But it's a pricing structure with a floor but no ceiling, and that is clearly not fair and just opportunistic.
06-15-23, 10:41 AM
#104
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
I go to small venues now.
One of my favorite guitarists of all time (Marc Ford) just had a show at a local club.
$20 tix, and I stood maybe 5 feet from the stage.
Or even slightly bigger venues for other bands I love (like Manic Street Preachers w/ Suede at House of Blues, or Rival Sons at The Fonda, or Paul Weller), all around $30 to $40, and smaller venues where I can scootch to the stage. Sure, these aren't huge acts, but I don't like huge acts, so my concert going is far more enjoyable and affordable!
One of my favorite guitarists of all time (Marc Ford) just had a show at a local club.
$20 tix, and I stood maybe 5 feet from the stage.
Or even slightly bigger venues for other bands I love (like Manic Street Preachers w/ Suede at House of Blues, or Rival Sons at The Fonda, or Paul Weller), all around $30 to $40, and smaller venues where I can scootch to the stage. Sure, these aren't huge acts, but I don't like huge acts, so my concert going is far more enjoyable and affordable!
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BDB (06-16-23)
06-15-23, 10:44 AM
#105
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
Also wanted to point out a dirty little secret... a lot of these "service fees" go straight to the artists, and if they really didn't like it, they could tell ticketmaster not to charge them. Thing is, they love that money, and TM doesn't care if they look like the bad guy, so they take the PR hit, while fans keep thinking their favorite artist is the good guy.
06-15-23, 11:23 AM
#106
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
Also wanted to point out a dirty little secret... a lot of these "service fees" go straight to the artists, and if they really didn't like it, they could tell ticketmaster not to charge them. Thing is, they love that money, and TM doesn't care if they look like the bad guy, so they take the PR hit, while fans keep thinking their favorite artist is the good guy.
Ticketmaster’s main source of revenue comes from the fees it charges to process ticket transactions. A ticket’s face value goes to the artist, while the ticketing giant shares the fees it collects with the venues that contract for its services.
Ticketmaster typically keeps $2 to $5 per ticket for processing costs and a small portion of the fees it collects to recoup any loans, advances or bonuses it may have paid the venue to win its ticketing contract. Contracts for large venues can be worth millions of dollars. The balance of the fees collected goes to the venue, which uses the money to cover the cost of the show.
Traditionally, promoters book venues for artists, pay rent to use the space and hire its staff. What’s left over as profit is divvied up with the act, which typically receives 80% to 85% of that amount.
But as competition to book top-shelf headline talent has increased over the last decade, venues have reduced the rent they charge and promoters have agreed to take a smaller percentage of base ticket sales — sometimes as little as 5%.
As Rapino said on the investor call: “The artist takes most of that ticket fee base. So the way that the venue, the promoter or the ticketing company [earns its] revenue fees is through that extra fee.”
The increasing costs of concert production, which are borne by the promoter, have also widened the gap between a ticket’s face value and the final amount charged after fees, which can induce sticker shock when two $100 tickets can end up costing $265. While it has been very profitable for Ticketmaster to cover more of a concert’s costs through these fees, it has helped turn ticket buyers against the company.
Ticketmaster typically keeps $2 to $5 per ticket for processing costs and a small portion of the fees it collects to recoup any loans, advances or bonuses it may have paid the venue to win its ticketing contract. Contracts for large venues can be worth millions of dollars. The balance of the fees collected goes to the venue, which uses the money to cover the cost of the show.
Traditionally, promoters book venues for artists, pay rent to use the space and hire its staff. What’s left over as profit is divvied up with the act, which typically receives 80% to 85% of that amount.
But as competition to book top-shelf headline talent has increased over the last decade, venues have reduced the rent they charge and promoters have agreed to take a smaller percentage of base ticket sales — sometimes as little as 5%.
As Rapino said on the investor call: “The artist takes most of that ticket fee base. So the way that the venue, the promoter or the ticketing company [earns its] revenue fees is through that extra fee.”
The increasing costs of concert production, which are borne by the promoter, have also widened the gap between a ticket’s face value and the final amount charged after fees, which can induce sticker shock when two $100 tickets can end up costing $265. While it has been very profitable for Ticketmaster to cover more of a concert’s costs through these fees, it has helped turn ticket buyers against the company.
06-15-23, 12:35 PM
#107
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
You can't put a face to TM like you can to an artist.
06-15-23, 12:43 PM
#108
DVD Talk God
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
I bought my wife VIP tickets to Old Dominion and a parking pass. Face value for these was $550, total. Ended up being $667 after fees. Fucking highway robbery.
USD $8.05 (Order Processing Fee)USD $5.00 (Facility Charge) x 2USD $45.70 (Service Fee) x 2
All that BS is shown at the end, of course. I am all in favor of this new Biden plan and their agreement for them to show all fees up front.
But that still doesn't make up for the fact that the fees are bullshit as it is. It doesn't and shouldn't cost $117 to sell me tickets. And that is charged many thousands of times over for each show.
USD $8.05 (Order Processing Fee)USD $5.00 (Facility Charge) x 2USD $45.70 (Service Fee) x 2
All that BS is shown at the end, of course. I am all in favor of this new Biden plan and their agreement for them to show all fees up front.
But that still doesn't make up for the fact that the fees are bullshit as it is. It doesn't and shouldn't cost $117 to sell me tickets. And that is charged many thousands of times over for each show.
06-15-23, 04:24 PM
#109
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
WASHINGTON, June 15, 2023 /PRNewswire/ -- Live Nation will begin providing a new all-in pricing experience for concerts at the venues and festivals the company operates across the United States starting this September.
Live Nation has been advocating for all-in pricing to become law for many years, and joined a forum at the White House today hosted by President Biden to discuss this and other reforms that would benefit artists and consumers. With all-in pricing, fans can see upfront the full ticket price, including fees. Fans typically know tickets will include service fees, but seeing the total cost from the start makes buying tickets easier and consistent with other retail shopping experiences.
Tom See, President of Venue Nation, said: "Live Nation is proud to provide fans with a better ticket buying experience. We have thousands of crew working behind the scenes every day to help artists share their music live with fans, and we'll continue advocating for innovations and reforms that protect that amazing connection."
In addition to all in pricing, Live Nation and Ticketmaster joined with an industry-wide coalition earlier this year to promote FAIR Ticketing Reforms that protect artists and fans, while pushing back against laws that enable scalping. FAIR Ticketing advocates for:
SOURCE Live Nation Entertainment
Live Nation has been advocating for all-in pricing to become law for many years, and joined a forum at the White House today hosted by President Biden to discuss this and other reforms that would benefit artists and consumers. With all-in pricing, fans can see upfront the full ticket price, including fees. Fans typically know tickets will include service fees, but seeing the total cost from the start makes buying tickets easier and consistent with other retail shopping experiences.
Tom See, President of Venue Nation, said: "Live Nation is proud to provide fans with a better ticket buying experience. We have thousands of crew working behind the scenes every day to help artists share their music live with fans, and we'll continue advocating for innovations and reforms that protect that amazing connection."
In addition to all in pricing, Live Nation and Ticketmaster joined with an industry-wide coalition earlier this year to promote FAIR Ticketing Reforms that protect artists and fans, while pushing back against laws that enable scalping. FAIR Ticketing advocates for:
- passing federal all-in pricing legislation
- letting artists determine resale rules
- making speculative ticket selling illegal
- enforcing the 2016 BOTS Act
SOURCE Live Nation Entertainment
06-15-23, 04:40 PM
#110
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
I think artists should be paid for their art. I don't think Live Nation and Ticketmaster deserve nearly as much as they are currently taking for some clerical work.
06-15-23, 05:09 PM
#111
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
So if that extra bit is actually going to the artist, then TM isn't really making that much extra for their clerical work, are they?
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Obi-Wanma (06-15-23)
06-15-23, 05:27 PM
#113
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
Most of those expensive tours you hear about (Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Springsteen) have cheap tickets available. The good seats are expensive, but the narrative that you offer isn't really true. Besides, I've always felt if a good ticket for a hot act can go for a fortune on the secondary market, I'd rather the artist see that money than just the scalpers.
06-15-23, 05:48 PM
#114
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
Most of those expensive tours you hear about (Taylor Swift, Beyonce, Springsteen) have cheap tickets available. The good seats are expensive, but the narrative that you offer isn't really true. Besides, I've always felt if a good ticket for a hot act can go for a fortune on the secondary market, I'd rather the artist see that money than just the scalpers.
I don't know how the markets are outside of California, but when the total price of a ticket comes out to almost/over $100 for one, that's way too much. I can understand if it's a festival (maybe), but not for standing room or GA admission. The last show I went to pre pandemic was Alice Cooper at The Greek and those tickets were gotten off Groupon for less than $60 each and we were in the middle of the venue just behind Orchestra. It was great. I assume post pandemic pricing kicked in and it's been high ever since bands came back. Hell, I didn't even catch Rammstein when they played at the Coliseum (3 nights in a row) because each ticket no matter where you were at was insanely priced. Good thing I had already seen them twice in my life.
If this is the new fad of hosing down the people for these tickets I will be just fine never going to another big or legacy show again. As people have said, there's no shortage of new acts playing small venues, etc., at semi-reasonable prices.
06-15-23, 05:56 PM
#115
DVD Talk Godfather & 2020 TOTY Winner
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
Like everything, tickets are a case of supply and demand. If the supply of available tickets exceeds demand, then discounts like that Groupon are common, moving unsold tickets at a discount is much better than having unsold seats at the time of the show. When the demand far exceeds the supply, you get a skyrocketing secondary market. I don't think $100 for a high-demand show is much at all, TBH. A Broadway show costs $150 a ticket in the lower level. An NBA ticket can be much more than that face value. Doesn't mean there aren't cheaper alternatives like regional theater and G-League games, if that's what you want -- but clearly it's not the same thing, or exactly the same experience, and should be priced a lot less.
06-16-23, 10:25 AM
#116
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
Like everything, tickets are a case of supply and demand. If the supply of available tickets exceeds demand, then discounts like that Groupon are common, moving unsold tickets at a discount is much better than having unsold seats at the time of the show. When the demand far exceeds the supply, you get a skyrocketing secondary market. I don't think $100 for a high-demand show is much at all, TBH. A Broadway show costs $150 a ticket in the lower level. An NBA ticket can be much more than that face value. Doesn't mean there aren't cheaper alternatives like regional theater and G-League games, if that's what you want -- but clearly it's not the same thing, or exactly the same experience, and should be priced a lot less.
Well, I don't expect a ticket that's over $100 per person will make much of a difference to a high earning individual like yourself. It will to the rest of the people going, which if they don't have the money, will most likely put it on a credit card, or have to get a shitty nosebleed seat. An overpriced shitty nosebleed seat that they'll have to videotape the performance off of the big screen.
Personally for me, when I actually took notice of the increase was when Ghost started headlining stadiums. They played at The Forum a couple of years ago and for 1 single GA (standing room only) ticket, was over $100 for the ticket. I had already seen the band 4 times before at The Fonda, Palladium, The Mayan, and The Wiltern. They finally made it big and the ticket prices skyrocketed. I'm no math expert but when the price of a ticket jumps 3X I'm tapping out.
Concerts and live entertainment have become an inaccessible luxury now. I will be trying to catch a World Cup game when it comes back to North America, but that's a once in a lifetime thing.
06-16-23, 10:41 AM
#117
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
It's also interesting how focused everyone (the general public, not necessarily this board) is in using the ticket price as the base variable on which we calculate fees. The ticket prices are set by the artists (more specifically, the promoter) and if someone like The Cure wants to sell $200 tickets for $20, why should their fans get a break on fees? Should Drake fans who are paying market price for their tickets help subsidize the cost of The Cure fans' tickets?
06-16-23, 10:50 AM
#118
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
I think artists should be paid for their art. I don't think Live Nation and Ticketmaster deserve nearly as much as they are currently taking for some clerical work.
06-16-23, 10:53 AM
#119
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
This is usually just Live Nation spin, and they love to promote this soundbite every time there's an uproar over the latest ticket crisis. Reserving one row at the very top of the stadium for $49 tickets and then having everything else $99 and above hardly counts as having cheap tickets available in my book.
06-16-23, 10:59 AM
#120
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
Or people can just not go. But there's a culture of FOMO that's taken over in recent years and it's largely behind the increase in ticket prices. Like Decker pointed out, it's all about supply and demand and when a fan is willing to go at any price, prices are just going to keep pushing higher.
06-16-23, 11:14 AM
#121
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
Operating a billion dollar e-commerce site that does millions of transactions a week is hardly clerical work.
06-16-23, 11:26 AM
#122
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
Or people can just not go. But there's a culture of FOMO that's taken over in recent years and it's largely behind the increase in ticket prices. Like Decker pointed out, it's all about supply and demand and when a fan is willing to go at any price, prices are just going to keep pushing higher.
08-04-23, 10:14 AM
#123
DVD Talk Legend
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
I thought this was a semi-interesting article, especially the graphs at the end.
I just don't understand why anyone pays that much money to see artists live. Can't afford rent but will pay thousands of dollars to see Beyonce or Taylor Swift for nosebleed seats where you just end up watching them on a large screen. I always thought that the market would stabilize when people balked at the ticket prices and fees but obviously, I was way wrong.
The Price of Pop Fandom | Pitchfork
I just don't understand why anyone pays that much money to see artists live. Can't afford rent but will pay thousands of dollars to see Beyonce or Taylor Swift for nosebleed seats where you just end up watching them on a large screen. I always thought that the market would stabilize when people balked at the ticket prices and fees but obviously, I was way wrong.
The Price of Pop Fandom | Pitchfork
08-04-23, 10:52 AM
#124
Political Exile
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
Of course. I should have also stated that just because I can afford it, doesn't mean I'm gonna pay for it. It doesn't mean that I am happy about it. In my 20s I used to go to shows almost every night for years. It was great. Now, I don't really miss it due to how high prices are. I'll take that saved money and redirect it elsewhere.
08-04-23, 11:27 AM
#125
DVD Talk Hero
Re: Ticketmaster--where's the outrage?
The Warning has really become big. Three sisters. I remember their video of their cover of Enter Sandman. Bass was bigger than the gal playing it. She's well matured. They played here opening for Halestorm and The Pretty Reckless.
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PerryD (08-04-23)