cultshock

Yeah, that sounds about right. Boy, those two albums were tough listens when I first heard them back in the 80s. (I had Canadian Banzai vinyl pressings of both back then but stupidly sold them, they're worth mucho bucks these days)

Josh-da-man

I'm really not up on all of the nuances that differentiate the various sub-genres (and sub-sub-genres) of metal.

I've been listening to this shit since the 1980s, and I'm still not sure what difference between speed metal and thrash metal are. Back in the day, it seems like those labels were used interchangeably.

Trout

It’s like the difference between Municipal Waste and Iron Reagan. One is thrash and the other is “crossover punk”, whatever that means. To me they sound similar.

Josh-da-man

A while back I saw band described as "melodic blackened death metal" and it made me think there might be a link between heavy metal and autism.

morriscroy

All this means is that some aspects of metal music is appealing to folks who enjoy obsessively categorizing things.

With that being said, I largely stopped paying attention to metal categories back in the late 1980s. Back in the day, I remember such terminology was being commonly used in then-current metal magazines. Though I couldn't figure out what exactly the definitions meant precisely.

I largely don't care what category a particular band/act is in. My criteria is how much replay does a particular album/song have for me.

As a very un-headbanger case, recently after listening to that Exit Eden "Femmes Fatales" cd many times, I did a further deep dive searching for other bands which sounded similar to Exit Eden's original tunes. One band which popped up was Amberian Dawn, where I also picked up their recent cd consisting of metal covers of ABBA songs.

cultshock

Oh, those terms were absolutely used interchangeably back then, along with the terms death metal and black metal in the 80s (people trying to figure out what the fuck to call bands like Hellhammer, Possessed and early Bathory for example). It was all a new style (or styles) of music, and journalists, reviewers and fans were trying to come up with names in real time. Shit, I've seen very early Metallica business cards where they referred to their music as "power metal". Now, power metal is a different genre, technically two, as US power metal is different from European power metal.

It's always been my opinion that metal is the geekiest of music genres, especially the obsessive catagorization of all the sub-sub-genres (and the gate-keeping). "Melodic blackened death metal" is how I would describe Dissection.

morriscroy

I get the impression this type of extreme categorization behavior in metal music, is something resembling obsessive compulsive disorders (OCD).

As counterexamples in areas completely unrelated to metal or music/arts in general, there are niches where extreme categorization is a part of the "job description" such as: mathematicians, botany, librarians, etc .... Over the years I've met and known enough mathematicans, biologists, etc .... in person, to observe that this "obsessive categorization" in only a part of their day jobs and not a part of their personalities outside of their career. So for aspects of life unrelated to mathematics, botany/taxonomy, etc ..., such folks don't really "categorize" things much.

beavis69

I'm 100% fine with obsessive labeling of genres in metal. Because when I find a band I like and I want to know similar bands to that sound, I don't want to get recommended Dying Fetus and Five Finger Death Punch because both are metal.

I've thought for awhile that the "metal family tree" that BangerTV creator Sam Dunn created needed to be scooped out a bit. To me metal genres fall into one of three main genres; traditional, extreme, alternative. Trad metal is stuff like heavy/thrash/doom/etc, extreme is death/black/gridecore/etc, and alternative is nu-metal/metalcore/post-metal/etc. Bands in trad and alternative come in and out of metal and are influenced by other genres, namely rock in trad and hip hop/punk in alternative. Extreme metal bands tend to stay in that sound and it is a big deal among the fanbase when they depart that sound (think Opeth). This also gets over the argument of "is this metal" because if you are asking that question then at least one album is heavily metal influenced.

morriscroy

I never really had issues like this ^ in regard to music. Over the years I've found that a particular category is largely uncorrelated with how much replay value something has for me. I learned this the hard way back in the day, from picking up many records released by metal blade, combat, noise, steamhammer/spv, music for nations, new renaissance, roadrunner, etc .... when "me too metallica / slayer" type bands flooded the indie metal market. The vast majority of such records I purchased, I only ever listened to once or twice.

Metal/punk/alternative were not the only niches I listened to. Back in the day, I also listened to stuff like the Saturday Night Fever soundtrack and early hiphop music like Herbie Hancock, Run DMC, and other stuff that "breakdancers" were into. So something categorized as "non metal" never really occured to me.

morriscroy

If a particular band changes their writing style drastically, most of the time I have no idea what the fanbase thought about it beyond reading record reviews. I never really had close friends who were always talking about music, and I largely stopped reading metal magazines sometime in the late 1980s. I don't really read metal websites or message boards on a regular basis, other than stuff which pops up during deep dives via googling a particular band.


As a recent example, I did a further deep dive on Exit Eden where one review described the original Exit Eden songs as sounding similar to a hybrid of Xandria and ABBA. I listened to several Xandria albums on youtube, and found that it sounded similar to Exit Eden. As a result of repeated replays, I picked up Xandria's "Sacrificium" and "Neverworld's End" cds and have been listening to these three cds quite a lot since they arrived in the mail.

The initial releases of these two Xandria titles had deluxe editions with extra tracks, back when they were first released around a decade ago. I listened to these extra tracks which were on youtube, and found that were not quite as good as the main album tracks. (One track had a neat guitar line in the middle of the song, but the overall song was not particularly memorable). I can see why these "extra tracks" were not on the main album. So I didn't think it was worthwhile finding these out-of-print deluxe editions (ie. taking a month to arrive from overseas, etc ....).

Xandria also released an ep "Fire & Ashes" shortly after "Sacrificium". After listening to these "Fire & Ashes" original songs on youtube, I got the impression they sounded like "leftover" material that was not used on "Sacrificium". (Half of "Fire & Ashes" were covers or re-recordings). I didn't think it was worthwhile finding a copy of this cd from overseas.


Doing a further deep dive on Xandria, quite a few reviews mentioned "Neverworld's End" and "Sacrificium" did not really sound like their previous albums. The most common meme was that Xandria created the perfect "early Nightwish" clone on these two albums. Since I never really listened to Nightwish or Within Temptation much, I didn't know what I was listening to at first on these two Xandria albums, other than it had a lot of replay value for me. Listening to some two decades old Nightwish songs on youtube, I can see where the resemblance/simulacra comes from. (I haven't done a deep dive on 2000s era symphonic power metal).

cultshock

Oh, I'm fine with it as well. Some of my favorite subgenres include atmospheric black metal, melodic black metal, blackened thrash and pagan/viking/black metal, so it's cool to find new bands that are classified as such.
Yeah, Dunn's metal family tree was great at trying to put some order to the chaos but it does need to be updated. I think Sam has mentioned it himself at times.
"Is this metal?", the timeless question. Recently I was listening to a band described as post-black metal and neo-classical. I could hear that it wasn't really metal, but some metal elements/influences were certainly there. If anything it's fun to kind of figure out how to categorize an album, must be my OCD tendencies.

morriscroy

Listening to Amberian Dawn's "Darkness of Eternity" from 2017, and "Looking For You" from 2020.

The songs on "Darkness of Eternity" sound like ABBA writing speed metal tunes with elements of Yngwie Malmsteen (albeit fast solos played on a keyboard).

In contrast, "Looking for You" drops a lot of the fast drumming and sounds more like pop music with heavy guitars.

On these two albums, the keyboardist even booked some studio time at Riksmixningsverket owned by Benny Andersson of ABBA. One of the perks at this particular studio, is that some actual vintage (restored) keyboard equipment originally used on old classic ABBA albums back in the 1970s and early 1980s, is available for studio recordings.

https://amberiandawn.com/keyboard-re...rssons-studio/

morriscroy

Heavy distorted guitars played fast ?

morriscroy

Also picked up Sirenia's recent cd "1977" released last year.

Most of the songs on "1977" sound like 1980s era "synth pop" songs played with more involved heavier sounding guitars riffs. (Extensive guitar parts didn't seem to be a prominent upfront part of "synth pop" songs from that era, such as Duran Duran, etc ...).

Trout

:cough: Doom Metal :cough:

cultshock

And sludge metal. And the slowest music I've ever heard, funeral doom. On the other hand, punk can also have heavy, distorted, fast guitars.

Trout

Love me some funeral doom.

Ever watch those videos where people take the distortion out of black metal music and you end up with some pretty cool surf music?

cultshock

Yeah I have, all that fast tremolo guitar picking in black metal really does evoke surf music.

morriscroy

For that type of fast guitar playing, the metal folks would likely also be doing palm muting. Palm muting on a heavily distorted guitar, is what gives it that "chug chug chug ...." type of sound.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_muting


Even less heavier stuff like Motley Crue and Skid Row did the palm muting thing, such as at the beginning of the song "Dr Feelgood" or most of the song "Slave To The Grind". It sounds like the song "Slave to the Grind" was also in a drop-D tuning, which makes it sound even more "heavier" than most of the other songs on the album. Dr Feelgood sounds like the guitar was tuned down two steps to D, similar to Celtic Frost on Morbid Tales.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guitar...ropped_tunings

cultshock

Isn't palm muting more associated with thrash metal and death metal rather than black metal? (which uses more of an angry buzzing guitar sound rather than chugging)
But that crunchy, chugging guitar sound you get from palm muting is what first attracted me to Metallica and other thrash bands of the day, love that sound.

morriscroy

In terms of a "buzzing" guitar type sound, the few speed/thrash bands which played that way somewhat "slower" (relatively) might be something like early Exciter albums such as "Violence & Force". As far as I can hear, the Exciter guitarist didn't really use palm muting extensively.

Watching some Emperor live footage from Wacken, it looks like the guitar players didn't really use palm muting extensively. (Hard to tell from listening to the original studio albums, where it sounds like it was flooded with tons of artificial reverb).

morriscroy

Listening to Amberian Dawn's "Magic Forest" from a decade ago. It sounds different than their more recent ABBA-esque stuff.

For lack of a better description, the writing sounds like speed metallers doing a "Disney" production or a musical film.

stvn1974

High On Fire - Cometh The Storm (April 19.2024)
https://blabbermouth.net/news/high-o...e-burning-down

morriscroy

Heh.

Alissa White-Gluz singing a really fast paced cover of Taylor Swift's "Wildest Dreams" with Dragonforce.

morriscroy

Listening to Visions of Atlantis "Pirates Over Wacken", Temperance "Hermitage - Daruma's Eyes", and Avantasia "A Paranormal Evening with the Moonflower Society".

These three cds sound like metal musicians writing music for a broadway stage play.