Hokeyboy

While agreed that it's disingenuous, using that to disregard all the other documented incidents from eyewitness reports (along with Waters own emails) is equally disingenuous.

Nesbit

There are some in there that definitely warrant further scrutiny like the things said in conversation or the song he wrote about his manager but there are others like the totally non descriptive supposedly anti semetic slogan that he wanted dropped with other anti organizational items during a performance of the wall that make the whole thing suspect. Whoever described the slogans as anti semetic knew what the slogans said or they wouldn’t have included that description yet they won’t be more specific because then it would put it in proper context of the performance. Because of inclusions of things like that it makes me far more willing to listen to the context of the things said in conversation or in the song about the manager.


TLDR: When you include a little bit of bullshit it all starts to smell

Nesbit

Waters’ response



Earlier this month the Campaign Against Antisemitism contacted me about a film they have made. They gave me seven days to respond to multiple questions about matters dating back to 2002 and 2010. Initially I took the view that their attacks on my character did not deserve a response. However, now that the attacks are in circulation, I want to put my response on record.

All my life I have used the platform my career has given me to support causes I believe in. I passionately believe in Universal Human Rights. I have always worked to make the world a better, more just and more equitable place for all my brothers and sisters, all over the world, irrespective of their ethnicity, religion or nationality, from indigenous peoplesthreatened by the US oil industry to Iranian women protesting for their rights.

That is why I am active in the non-violent protest movement against the Israeli government’s illegal occupation of Palestine and its egregious treatment of Palestinians.

Those who wish to conflate that position with antisemitism do a great disservice to us all.

People need to know about the CAA, the organisation that made this film. Following complaints to the Charity Commission the CAA is facing scrutiny. Its core purpose is waging partisan political campaigns against critics of the state of Israel. So I knew their questions were not asked in good faith.

Truth is, I’m frequently mouthy and prone to irreverence, I can’t recall what I said 13 or more years ago. I’ve worked closely for many years with many Jewish people, musicians and others. If I have upset the two individuals who appear in the film I’m sorry for that. But I can say with certainty that I am not, and have never been, an antisemite – as anyone who really knows me will testify. I know the Jewish people to be a diverse, interesting, and complicated bunch, just like the rest of humanity. Many are allies in the fight for equality and justice, in Israel, Palestine and around the world.

The film totally distorts and misrepresents my views about the Israeli state and its political ideology, Zionism. It relies on a definition of antisemitism that sees criticising Israel as inherently antisemitic and assumes that Zionism is an essential element in Jewish identity. These opinions, clearly shared by the presenter and the two interviewees, are widely contested by many, including many Jewish people.

The CAA film manipulates footage and quotations to serve its agenda and is seriously misleading in many respects. What it says about my latest tour, This Is Not A Drill, repeats a series of falsehoods that have already been debunked, many times, not just by me, but in the German courts, after attempts were made to have my show banned there. The offensive words I referenced in quotes in an email 13 years ago, were my brainstorming ideas on how to make the evils and horrors of fascism and extremism apparent and shocking to a generation that may not fully appreciate the ever-present threat. They are not the manifestation of any underlying bigotry as the film suggests. Quite the opposite. I have been trying to expose the evils of fascism ever since learning of my father’s death fighting fascists in World War II.

In summary, the film is a flimsy, unapologetic piece of propaganda that indiscriminately mixes things I’m alleged to have said or done at different times and in different contexts, in an effort to portray me as an antisemite, without any foundation in fact.

END

Hokeyboy

Funny. The CAA allegations have nothing to do with Israel but rather Waters's allegedly-documented acts of antisemitism, which he sweeps under the rug by simply claiming he "isn't an antisemite" ("Well I'm not a crook"). Then he attacks the messenger without really disproving the message. Typical. And boring, to be honest. I always thought Waters was smarter than that.

Nesbit

The CAA video does talk about Water's being critical of Isreal. They change his words to be about Israelis instead of Israel because thats what CAA does, take criticisms of apartheid Isreal and make it about being anti Israeli.

He didnt sweep anything under the rug and apologized to the musician he worked with and Bob Ezrin for offending them. He did use the preface which annoys me of "Im sorry IF ..." but as he said these are things that took place between 13 and 45 years ago, he doesn't remember them specifically, and he is a loud mouth asshole.

You have to understand that he is one of the loudest voices in the world against what Isreal is doing and what Isreal is doing is wrong and they dont want people talking about it.

Hokeyboy

And for more non-political/non-antisemitic reasons why Waters seems to have fully evolved into an insufferable twat:

Pink Floyd fans walk out of Roger Waters gig at London Palladium after he spent an HOUR reading from his unpublished autobiography and told stories about his pet duck called Donald
Unfortunately the article retreats into the antisemitism/anti-Israeli points which have already been documented and debated to death. For a more nuanced take:

The Pink Floyd contrarian’s Dark Side of the Moon performance was sublime – unlike the shabby stand-up act that preceded it
Apparently the evening was divided into two one-hour segments. The first was Waters reading excerpts of his book from his laptop, the second a performance of the Dark Side redux. Only the latter was preceded by a 20-minute film that many called "interminable".

I'll give Waters credit for sticking to his shit, no matter who it pisses off.

Nesbit

Have listened to Redux. The version of Money we heard early might actually be a “highlight”. It’s bad.

Can’t imagine paying to hear it or Waters talk at length. He’s written some music that connects with me as personally as any i’ve ever heard and I agree with him on almost every issue I’ve heard him talk about but he’s also insufferable.

Hokeyboy

Waters's last solo album wasn't bad at all. Why he keeps going back to the PF well, other than either financial reasons or to give his former bandmates the finger (Gilmour really, since he gets along with Mason), seems rather quizzical.

I listened to the Redux. Someone described it as a "mood" rather than an album, and I won't disagree with that assessment. It's still terrible, but it's a curiosity of sorts. Not that I plan on supporting Waters financially ever again (paying $250 for a Dark Side 50th Box Set? LOL!) but I respect his conviction as an artist. He couldn't care less if anyone else likes what he does.

Nesbit

I really need to give his solo albums a shot. Every few years I give The Final Cut a listen but can’t get into it.

Josh-da-man

On his next tour, Waters will perform a one-man reading of his unfinished play "Saucy Jack," then three hours of "Jazz Odyssey."

mndtrp

I'm glad I saw him on his Dark Side of the Moon and The Wall tours. Of course, that was only because there were Pink Floyd songs as the majority of the set. His earlier solo albums were decent enough, but I couldn't get into the one from 2017. As far as his reimagining of DSotM. It's not for me. At all.

rocket1312

I haven't heard the new Dark Side yet, but I really liked his last album. His last original album that is, not the Lockdown Sessions.

As for why he keeps going back to rehashing Pink Floyd, I think there are a couple of reasons and I don't think it's money. I know he has a bunch of material lying around, but trying to form it into a coherent concept that isn't just a long passages of political ramblings is likely a difficult task. Nigel Godrich reportedly was fairly aggressive cutting out the fat from Is This the Life... and was the driving force behind making it sound more like a classic Pink Floyd album. Judging by some of his interviews since then, I think that may have ruffled Roger's feathers a bit. But he also probably realizes that his current vision isn't the most commercial in the world, which is why he keeps retreating to the Floyd. He knows it gets ears and eyeballs for him to deliver his message. But maybe even more importantly, it allows to him to establish ownership and authorship of the material in the eyes of the general public. As he's gotten older, he's seemingly become more and more obsessed with making sure history recognizes him at the creative driving force behind the band. It's been at the heart of all the renewed animosity between he and Gilmour in the post "hey, maybe we can all be friendly" era of the late aughts.

Nesbit

Got to see both as well. Saw the Dark Side tour in Dublin. Singing “Hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way” with a couple thousand Irish people hit different.

rocket1312

If you don't like The Final Cut, then his solo albums probably won't do much for you either. But if you were going to listen to just one, it would probably have to be Amused to Death. Roger himself puts it up there with Dark Side and the Wall. I think about 75% of it is pretty darn great, but there is some stuff in the middle that drags it down for me a bit. The increased runtime of cds (as compared to vinyl) may have had a negative effect there. It needed some trimming.

The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking might actually be my favorite of his solo albums, but it's a little silly and admittedly kind of an acquired taste. Radio KAOS is the only one that I think isn't good, but even that has some pretty effective moments.

Nesbit

Thanks for the suggestion! Will give it a listen in the next week.

Hokeyboy

Pros and Cons is the only Waters solo album I really like. The rest are largely forgettable to terrible, although Is This The Life We Want wasn't bad.

I've finally gotten to the point where I no longer hate The Final Cut, but it's no forgotten masterpiece or underrated gem or whatever. It does have a few decent tunes but it's so dour, one-note, and dirgey. And mostly sub-par.

TGM

Not Now John is the only decent track on The Final Cut.

Roger forgets that music should be somewhat enjoyable to the ear.

What he has been making post-Floyd is generally not music, but spoken word poetry with a few clanky drum beats or plunky guitar.

His lyrics are generally thought provoking, profound, complex, gorgeous, and interesting but it is generally unlistenable.

Conversely, Gilmour's post-Floyd stuff is quite lame lyrically, but wonderfully melodic and ohhhh that glorious guitar.

that's what made Pink Floyd in their prime so amazing. The perfect combination. Apart they are both lacking for polar opposite reasons.

rocket1312

You guys are really sleeping on Amused to Death. As I mentioned above, it's not perfect, but from What God Wants, Part II to the end is pretty spectacular to my ears. The title track, in particular, is yet another in a long line of great Waters penned album closers. No matter how janky some of his stuff gets, he always knows how to end things on a high note.

As for The Final Cut, there's some good stuff buried in there (the title track is my personal favorite), but the production with it's big swells of music followed by long stretches of nothing, along with the dreariness of it all, really hurt the overall vibe. I've found that the songs he's done live over the years with more traditional arrangements, really come to life. The Gunner's Dream with it's extended Eric Clapton solo was probably the highlight of his Pros and Cons tour. And even something short and interstitial like the Get Your Filthy Hands/Southampton Dock medley from the In The Flesh tour takes on much greater emotional weight outside the context of the original album.

stvn1974

I liked Is This The Life We Want well enough when I streamed it a few times. Pros and Cons Of Hitchhiking and Radio K.A.O.S.are not really that great, IMO. Amused To Death is so boring that I slipped into a coma when I tried to listen to it last.

Hokeyboy

I used to think so too, but I listened to it recently and it's just awful.

The best track on the album is the title track IMO.

Nesbit

I kind of dig Fletcher Memorial and really like the place When the Tigers Broke Free has in The Wall film but that’s it.