Joe Schmoe

Maybe Ben's bullet hole flipped sides because the editor flipped the film frame for some reason. These kinds of mistakes show up in movies sometimes... you notice a guy's hair parted on the opposite side, the buttons on his shirt have switched sides, etc. I'd like to think it wasn't an error, but maybe it was.

redrum

well when they had him on the table workin on the wound, it wasn't by his heart

dsa_shea

Now this I can buy. Maybe the Losties did change things, however Ben was always destined to be who he is in the present regardless of what happened to him and by whose hands.

Superman07

Why would you assume they changed something? We haven't see anything from the "present" island perspective since the O6 left and Sawyer's group started hopping around. Who knows what happened in those 3 years.

viking99

Very well put! In between, we had the Donnie Darko version of a doomed branching timeline that would end in 28 days, 06 hours, 42 minutes, and 12 seconds. Personally, the LOST version of "whatever happened, happened" sits much better with the left side of my brain. Christianity struggles with the perceived conflict of predestination versus freedom of choice. Same thing....

DthRdrX

I'm honestly not a big fan of how the show is portraying 'free will', by which I mean everything is going to happen regardless of what choices people make. I'm perfectly fine with how they use it to revolve around paradox situations in the past, but it shouldn't be used during the present.

What I mean is that if Desmond saves Charlie in the present, then the world shouldn't keep trying to off him because it's 'his time'. Same with Michael and the 'island' not letting him kill himself. This defeats the entire idea of free will.

Of course, this also begs a question that I brought up earlier this season. What if what we thought was the show's present timeline, isn't really the present? The only real evidence of this would be things such as Jacob assumingly telling them to build of the runway, Ben being shocked by Alex's death. If Ben did remember any of the losties during the Dharma era he would certainly know Jin was there as well, yet he was surprised to hear he was alive. Is this proof that Ben doesn't remember them when he was a child, or, is it possible that in the original timeline Jin did die and the island course corrected soley to bring Sun back? Was Desmond saving Charlie long enough to get to the Looking Glass station the thing that changed what was supposed to happen in the first place? Remember, Charlie was pretty much marked for death back in season one between the drugs and Ethan.

They can go a million different ways with it. One thing is for sure, I want to say that I believe 100% that you can't change the past in the Lost universe, yet my common sense is telling me that they are teasing the hell out of the whole topic. Just go watch the Comic Con video again. Chang is begging for Dharma to reorganize in the present and find a way to change the past, while he can hear Faraday stating they are wasting time! Same thing with the Miles/Hurley conversation. If you want to set something in stone in a series you just state the rule and leave it be. The writer's keep rehashing the subject and that is making me wonder what's up.

SteelWill

If you can't change the past with free will, free will can't exist and you can't change the present to affect the future either. Time is relative and any point in the past, present, or future is a past point to and even further future point. This is why I'm not a fan of their time travel rules either, it's either all destiny and no free will all the time, or the rule will be arbitrarily ignored when the Losties return to the "present." I hope the rule gets flat broken.

DthRdrX

It makes perfect logical sense for characters to be denied by the universe if they go to the past and try and change things, however, that shouldn't apply to the present. The universe shouldn't try and change things that have yet to happen.

Disneyboy

The thing is, the character do have free will. They are free to choose any action that they please. It's just that in the case of the characters in the 70's, that this is also their past, and the consequences of these choices have already occured.

calhoun07

Right. And I think the island is trying to course correct the bad decisions that were made. But we have to go back in time to see how what happened happened before they can start fixing it.

Somebody brought up Desmond and trying to save Charlie...also remember part of seeing Charlie die was seeing Claire getting rescued from the island with the baby. Now, we did see the baby get rescued, but not Clarie. She was supposed to get on a helicopter with Aaron.

So the question is has this actually yet to happen, and Desmond was not seeing the results of the freighter and Faraday and crew coming to the island? Will we see Claire and Aaron get on a helicopter in a future episode? Or did something happen to change the so-called destiny?

SteelWill

Past/present/future is all relative. "Present" is the past from some future point. If you can't change the past to alter the future, then that goes for the "present" too. There is no free will, no self determination, whatever happens is all destiny.

DthRdrX

No it's not. Then Faraday would have stated you can't change 'anything'. He didn't. He stated you can't change the past. If they had no control over the present the show would be worthless.

DthRdrX

I'm sorry, but free will is overturned when supernatural means bring people back to life.

SteelWill

Whatever happened, happened in 1977. That's the past for the Losties who went back from 2004/2007. But for the Dharma folks it's every bit the present. In 1977, no one can change things to alter the future, not the Losties and not Dharma. By extension, say the Losties make it back to 2007. This "present" is also the past relative to some other future reference point. So again the Losties can't change things to alter that future point. Faraday said the future can't be changed by changes in the past, and the present is the past in relation to the future.

DthRdrX

Your basically proving that free will means nothing. If you are going by some unknown future reference point then the characters actions have no meaning whatsoever because everything is set in stone to happen a certain way.

I'll post more later. I thought up a few things from this episode.

SteelWill

That's exactly what I'm saying, and exactly why I don't like the direction the writers have taken here.

dsa_shea

If nothing can really be done to alter the future/present by changing the past then you really negate the need for some of them to go back. Then you're left with the only reasons for returning to be either human relationships or a need for the island like Locke. Aside from that the year 2007 will always be the 2007 that it was going to be whether all of them were there or some of them. Knowing this cheapens the story and the impact they're trying to bring with it.

Aphex Twin

You know, Farraday can easily test his "whatever happened, happened" theory. He could have not said anything to young Charlotte that one time he saw her after he traveled back in time. If he didn't say anything to her, she would not have had the obsession to travel back to the island and expire.

cracksky

Or, it's possible that Desmond simply told Charlie what he needed to hear so he would go out to the Looking Glass. We never actually saw any vision of Claire and Aaron getting on the copter. The fact that she was missing makes it hard to believe as well. I think Desmond's guilt was getting to him over the lie and that's why he went out there to help Charlie.

dsa_shea

Hopefully some of their rules of the game are more clearly defined with this week's episode.

calhoun07

Is that why we haven't seen him around since he saw young Charlotte bopping around as a kid?

JZ1276

what ever happened to the rest of the others (Ben's people)? They left to go into hiding when they learned of the freighter and I don't remember ever seeing them again.

Palaver

We really haven't seen much of that timeline (present) on the island. The last I believe we saw of them was Locke sitting with them as Ben turned the wheel.

aintnosin

Yup. They were on the Island in 2005 when Ben turned the wheel. Since then, our heroes started jumping all over time (and clearly the Others didn't follow).

So, where are they now that Ajira 316 has crashed on the Island in 2007 or 2008?

Raul3

Ooooh! I saw the title for this week's episode and I'm so excited!