Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
05-15-09, 12:03 PM
#476
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
That they chose to change it implies, at least to me, that there has been a change in the Lostverse. What that change is - a jump in time, some kind of a "resetting," or some other, as yet unposited idea - who knows?
The only thing I am fairly confident of is that it won't be the type of resetting that Jack and the others were expecting. They will still be themselves, and their memories of past events on the island will be intact.
05-15-09, 12:10 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
I think so. I think whatever happened at the end (either the bomb went off or it was another "flash") transported Jack/Kate/Sawyer back to the present which is of course what Jacob was talking about "they're coming". I also think Jacob is not really dead, but his physical body is burned up, so now he needs a new body. Maybe Jack has to die to become the "new Jacob" which would set up Jack/John being the immortal arch-enemies. The writers have been setting up Jack/John as opposites since the beginning with the faith vs. science stuff and all their leadership conflicts. I bet next season we will see a final conflict setting up between Locke/Ben and Jack/Richard.
This is all pure speculation and I have no idea what will play out. lol
This is all pure speculation and I have no idea what will play out. lol
05-15-09, 12:14 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
About the white screen at the end: I'm fairly certain it's from the bomb and not a flash. The previous flashes were gradual and accompanied a buzzing sound. This just happened in an instant. All previous end titles ended with a black screen then LOST in white. Because the screen was already white they chose to put the LOST letters in black instead of going to a black screen after the white out.
I think what's happening is a game between Jacob and "Esau". Jacob is clearly the white player, Esau the black. They use the people on the island as their pieces, and of course, like all games, there are RULES.
Unlike most classic Backgammon boards, the one in lost used white and black (not black and red) pieces:
The significance to me of the color inversion is that up until that point, Jacob was winning (white logo over black), but now, much like an Othello board, Esau is winning, so it's black logo over white.
So LOST is a game, Jacob and Esau are the players, and the Losties are the pawns.
05-15-09, 12:15 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
As you can see, it says "KNOWN FINAL RESTING PLACE OF MAGNUS HANSO/BLACKROCK"
05-15-09, 12:18 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
The main reason I think it was (and is) a crazy plan is because it represents the classic time travel paradox. If you travel back in time, and murder your own grandfather, then you would never be born. But, if you were never born, you could not have traveled back in time, so your grandfather lived, which resulted in you being born and traveling back and murdering him, which resulted in no you... and the paradox is never resolved.
By preventing the catastrophe that led to the plane crash, the circumstances that resulted in the losties being sent back in time would never have happened, meaning they would not be there to prevent the catastrophe. Infinite loop.
The only alternative theory that is internally consistent is one where the change in the timeline (the detonation of the thermonuclear device) creates a new parallel timeline, but that means there is a new set of people in the new timeline, and the lives and memories of the current characters are not changed, they are only dead. But even in that new timeline, who is to say that Jacob and his enemy couldn't restore the island, bring a fresh group of people, and have them drill into the pocket?
By preventing the catastrophe that led to the plane crash, the circumstances that resulted in the losties being sent back in time would never have happened, meaning they would not be there to prevent the catastrophe. Infinite loop.
The only alternative theory that is internally consistent is one where the change in the timeline (the detonation of the thermonuclear device) creates a new parallel timeline, but that means there is a new set of people in the new timeline, and the lives and memories of the current characters are not changed, they are only dead. But even in that new timeline, who is to say that Jacob and his enemy couldn't restore the island, bring a fresh group of people, and have them drill into the pocket?
I tend to do a very poor job of explaining myself about this, and I recognize that. Just think that time is always moving forward, and you won't change anything by going back and doing something different. You were always born in 1980, because when you went back, that already happened.
Hopefully this wasn't too confusing.
05-15-09, 12:46 PM
#481
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
Right, and I know this is nitpicking, but all that copy was not in the show. Someone else added it later, from external sources. So none of that, outside of the actual hatch sketches, can be considered canon.
05-15-09, 12:57 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
No one "made up" ANYTHING listed on the hatch map, they just enhanced it to make it easily viewable.
To say it's not cannon is not sustainable.
Here's the original map, you can clearly see the text on it:
05-15-09, 01:15 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
I tend to do a very poor job of explaining myself about this, and I recognize that. Just think that time is always moving forward, and you won't change anything by going back and doing something different. You were always born in 1980, because when you went back, that already happened.
Hopefully this wasn't too confusing.
Hopefully this wasn't too confusing.
And that is the whole point of my earlier comments. Whether the outcome is a parallel timeline created by the bomb detonation, or whether it is "whatever happened always happened" logic, Jack's theory that preventing the catastrophe would allow the Losties to move on with their lives without ever having crashed, is completely fallacious.
05-15-09, 01:17 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
No, that isn't confusing at all. But that is the whole point of the paradox. If you go back in time, and change something that affects whether or not you exist in the future, or even changes your "future" memories from what they are now, you create an impossible-to-resolve condition. If the thing you do in the past always happened, then it is impossible for you to do something that prevents you from existing, or being where you are right now, with your current memories intact. Under that paradigm, it would be impossible for the Losties to do anything that erases their memories, and Faraday's epiphany (the "people" and "free will" variables) is pointless.
And that is the whole point of my earlier comments. Whether the outcome is a parallel timeline created by the bomb detonation, or whether it is "whatever happened always happened" logic, Jack's theory that preventing the catastrophe would allow the Losties to move on with their lives without ever having crashed, is completely fallacious.
And that is the whole point of my earlier comments. Whether the outcome is a parallel timeline created by the bomb detonation, or whether it is "whatever happened always happened" logic, Jack's theory that preventing the catastrophe would allow the Losties to move on with their lives without ever having crashed, is completely fallacious.
I'm saying that this show dispels with the logic of a paradox because it's not a loop.
05-15-09, 01:22 PM
#485
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
My guess is that the losties from the past will all be trasnported back to the present day on the beach a la episode 1, they will recoup and then begin their journey to the end. I don't think we will see people back on the mainland as if the crash never happened but rather them being in the present time on the show. Now, however they lined up the timelines where Jacob knew they were coming with the event, that I'm guessing at this point is the flash, that gets them back to that present point is beyond me.
05-15-09, 02:12 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
It is ABSOLUTELY cannon Mike. Those things are written on the map, they just aren't as easily visible as displayed above. The writers and producers have said time and again that they know folks pause DVRs, enhance images, etc., so they have to be careful about what is displayed and written on screen.
No one "made up" ANYTHING listed on the hatch map, they just enhanced it to make it easily viewable.
To say it's not cannon is not sustainable.
No one "made up" ANYTHING listed on the hatch map, they just enhanced it to make it easily viewable.
To say it's not cannon is not sustainable.
05-15-09, 02:35 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
My guess is that the losties from the past will all be trasnported back to the present day on the beach a la episode 1, they will recoup and then begin their journey to the end. I don't think we will see people back on the mainland as if the crash never happened but rather them being in the present time on the show. Now, however they lined up the timelines where Jacob knew they were coming with the event, that I'm guessing at this point is the flash, that gets them back to that present point is beyond me.
1) Will Juliet survive (not the detonation*, but the injuries from the fall)?
2) Will Locke come back, or will the Enemy continue to masquerade as him?
3) Will Jack ultimately survive, or will Jacob reappear as Jack (implying Jack's death) to maintain the balance between him and the Enemy?
* Looking back, the more I think about it, we don't really know that the bomb detonated at all. All we saw was a white flash. Maybe that flash was the first occurrence of the time dislocation anomaly, and it merely coincided with Juliet hitting the canister.
05-15-09, 02:51 PM
#489
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
It is ABSOLUTELY cannon Mike. Those things are written on the map, they just aren't as easily visible as displayed above. The writers and producers have said time and again that they know folks pause DVRs, enhance images, etc., so they have to be careful about what is displayed and written on screen.
05-15-09, 03:19 PM
#490
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
Thats what I was wondering/fretting about:
If the White Flash at the end was just a neat little dissolve into the logo and not indicative of anything storywise ie time shift or explosion.
That would suck.
If the White Flash at the end was just a neat little dissolve into the logo and not indicative of anything storywise ie time shift or explosion.
That would suck.
05-15-09, 03:22 PM
#491
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
The white flash had to indicate that the game has changed. Nothing else makes sense to me.
The elctro-magnetic event going on when they drilled into it was the same thing that happened when Desmond didn't push the button. So if the bomb had always gone off (Faraday's Whatever Happened, Happened Theory) then it never made any difference. It went off and nothing changed because the anomaly wasn't contained/destroyed.
Chang would have lost his hand whether the bomb went off or not - assuming, of course, he was even at the site at the time. As I recall, the only reason he was there was because of the information from the time travelers. So if he was only there because the bomb was there, then the only reason he lost his hand was because the bomb was there. And because we've seen Dharma videos with him having no hand in the 2004 era, the bomb must've always been there.
These thoughts are contradictory to each other so I have no idea what's going on right now.
The elctro-magnetic event going on when they drilled into it was the same thing that happened when Desmond didn't push the button. So if the bomb had always gone off (Faraday's Whatever Happened, Happened Theory) then it never made any difference. It went off and nothing changed because the anomaly wasn't contained/destroyed.
Chang would have lost his hand whether the bomb went off or not - assuming, of course, he was even at the site at the time. As I recall, the only reason he was there was because of the information from the time travelers. So if he was only there because the bomb was there, then the only reason he lost his hand was because the bomb was there. And because we've seen Dharma videos with him having no hand in the 2004 era, the bomb must've always been there.
These thoughts are contradictory to each other so I have no idea what's going on right now.
05-15-09, 03:49 PM
#494
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
I keep thinking of the paradox from The Dark Tower, of Roland and Jake both slowly going insane from having two sets of incompatible memories, and I wonder if something similar will play into next year. Maybe something along the lines of 815 doesn't crash, but as they go about their lives they keep gaining memories of the things we've already seen on the island. Or maybe they're flashing between two different alternate realities. I dunno, that may be a bit too far-fetched.
BTW- I thought we were supposed to see a young Mr. Friendly/Tom in the finale?
BTW- I thought we were supposed to see a young Mr. Friendly/Tom in the finale?
05-15-09, 04:19 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
Bernard and Rose were with Sawyer/Juliet/Miles/John/etc when they started flashing through time, right after the freighter blew up, so presumably B & R ended up at the same time they all did (except John since he left the island).
B & R separated from the rest of the group in terms of location, but they still continued to flash through time.
B & R separated from the rest of the group in terms of location, but they still continued to flash through time.
Last edited by taa455; 05-15-09 at 04:21 PM. Reason: more information added
05-15-09, 04:20 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
They were skipping through time with Sawyer, Juliet, et al. So once the skipping stopped and Sawyer's group joined up with Dharma in 1974, Rose and Bernard were out in the jungle, apparently setting up their hut.
05-15-09, 04:23 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
Rose and Bernard were part of the group of Losties that remained on the island after the Oceanic 6 left. Once Ben turned the donkey wheel, they began flashing through time. This group also included Sawyer, Juliet, Daniel, Miles, and Charlotte. At one point they were attacked by arrow shooters at the beach. Rose and Bernard went one way. Sawyer's group went another way. Meanwhile, Jin was somewhere in the ocean. All three entities (R&B, Team Sawyer, Jin) continued to flash through time, even as they remained separated.
The thought of Jacob now taking over another dead body is interesting. Could anyone imagine it being Sayid's?
The thought of Jacob now taking over another dead body is interesting. Could anyone imagine it being Sayid's?
05-15-09, 04:30 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
"I would say in terms of all the… background that we did, in terms of the Valenzetti equation and explaining the formation of the Hanso Foundation and doing the other films…we’d consider that stuff canon to the show...in fact many of them were written by us personally so they are canon."
"I think that for us, yeah, I mean, all of Alvar Hanso and his relationship with funding the DHARMA Initiative is part of the mythology."
http://www.buddytv.com/articles/lost...amon-4766.aspx
05-15-09, 06:13 PM
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Re: Lost -- 2 Hour Season Finale -- "The Incident" -- 5/13/09
Having just watched the finale again I really don't understand the confusion with the ending. Juliet repeatedly hits the bomb with a rock (that was set to explode on impact). As she says, "son of a bitch," the screen whites out and we hear an explosion. Even when they run the brief promo a few seconds later you hear the explosion again. The bomb absolutely exploded. How much damage to the island and who survived is the issue when season 6 starts. If Radzinski is alive, he seemed extremely determined to keep going no matter what. I saw bags of cement at the site that I'm sure were to be used for other reasons but now they just have to cover up the mess. If all are dead then Richard must've witnessed it and we have a paradox.