zuffy

Even if MiB is evil, Jacob is a selfish dick. Think about it, he still bring people to the island knowing MiB will kill them because Jacob will not set MiB free.

dx23

This show has been since the first season a battle between science and faith mixed with science fiction. I don't understand why you or anyone else is complaining now when an episode focus on religion instead of science.

Draven

They also said they wouldn't do something crazy like time travel. All bets are off at this point.

This was an ok episode, mostly because it told an actual story and wasn't filled with a bunch of vague threats, strange behavior and dumb sci-fi like the rest of the season has been. I did enjoy Jacob/MIB talking like 21st century types in the late 1800s.

That said, it's pretty sad that the "best episode of the season/series" has virtually no involvement from the actual cast of the show. Makes it pretty clear how pointless their stories are...that Richard's backstory is the most interesting thing to happen in a while is a pretty sad example of how much this show has changed.

I really hope they pull it together for these last few episodes, but since they basically "wasted" an episode explaining how the Black Rock got where it did (no one cared), how the statue broke (no one cared) and how Richard became immortal (though not actually explained...unless "a wizard did it" is an explanation)...we've got a whole lot of ground left to cover.

Anyway, back to the lovefest.

dx23

By the way, I think Hurley is going to be Jacob's replacement.

raKim

love the backstory that was touched on in this ep...I still think the MiB is not necessarily the bad guy
Couple of things that stood out to me

MiB gave Richard the knife....richard fails and Jacob gets the knife...why would jacob give the knife to Dogen?

How would MiB take the form of Isabella, has he ever been able to take the form of anyone that was not dead on the island? I know he scanned Richard but that never gave him enough to shift into a person, right? We don't know that Jacob can't shapeshift right? I mean he can leave the island whenever, if he can teleport he can maybe take forms too...

Brian Gentz

oh those would have been bitched about non stop if they hadn't been addressed. It will be quite clear when the show is over, when people come out of the woodwork to bitch that their niche question wasn't answered. There are people that are obsessed with finding out what the freaking Hurley bird is.

rocketsauce

Are you being sarcastic? If not did you not read the first few pages of this thread? These were the most popular responses from people here about what they wanted this episode to answer, otherwise relegating it a failure.

Brian Gentz

maybe Christian Shepard? He wasn't in the coffin when Jack smashed it up, so I don't think customs let him bring it on the plane.

GenPion

I love the religious symbolism and allegory on this show. I do, however, agree that I loved the Dharma Initiative aspect and would still like to learn some more about them and what they were doing on the island. I definitely agree with that sentiment.

Anyway, I thought this episode was great... a total thrill ride (truly). However, unlike what it did for most of you (convince you that Jacob is the good one and MIB is evil) it is the episode that has made me more confused as to the writers intent. They love to surprise us. Let's not forget that. Perception on this show is something that can and has constantly changed for characters over the years. To me the whole Jacob and MIB scenario might not be any different in that regard. Honestly, what would be more surprising at this point? Having MIB be evil or having Jacob and the island be the real cause of our suffering?

Of course, I could be totally wrong... I certainly don't approve of the MIB's methods. However, many things seem to indicate that this is still a question we should be pondering on the show.

What if Jacob had a play in the death of Richard's wife and knew this would lead him down the path which would bring him to the island? After all... he's watched people for a VERY long time. And he's had some weird plays in the lives of other characters as well. Who knows, maybe he was using the lighthouse even then to bring everyone he wanted to the island. Maybe Jacob and the MIB even have some kind of agreement where anyone Jacob didn't want to be brought to the island (those he didn't apply numbers to, or put on the list) had to die? And that's Jacob's wish which he commands upon the MIB - who is a slave to Jacob? Maybe? And what if Jacob had a play in turning the MIB from a mortal into the black smoke monster and putting him into his "Job" on the island... which is specifically still not 100% clear to me if this theory holds true, and that it is all a part of Jacob's master game plan? Jacob turning MIB into the black smoke monster and forcing him to remain on island in his role could bring added meaning to MIB telling Richard he was glad to see him outside of his chains. But then Richard listens to the wrong side, and falls into eternal slavery to Jacob when he is given the "gift" of immortality - to forever be in his service... And didn't anyone else think it was weird that Jacob paused when asked if he was the devil? Was he feeling grief in the thought that anyone could see him that way, and that the MIB was using his power to manipulate? Or was it because that while he isn't really the "devil", he is JACOB after all - that is his name, couldn't Jacob be manipulating people just as much as the MIB has been if not more?

Likewise, I have a question about the appearances of Richard's Wife. Early in the episode, after the ship crashed and he survives - he sees his wife. Was he seeing an image of her ghost/spirit then? Or was he hallucinating? Also, if he was hallucinating how did the MIB know he saw her before Richard mentioned it to him? And why did we hear/see the black smoke as she was leaving the ship - the smoke monster can't be two places at once, right?

What if it was actually Jacob he saw as his wife? If he can take the form of dead people as well. And later in the episode, it was STILL Jacob, but since Jacob died he could not take an image that people could see other than Hurley - because Hurley can still communicate with Jacob. Therefore, Jacob took the image of Richard's wife to convince Hurley to convince Richard into remaining in his following so that the MIB doesn't win - even though the MIB really just wants everyone to have a life without the influence of Jacob controlling them all?

I dunno... that could all just be crazy gibberish. And I, of course, have the right to change my theory at any given time. But these are some possible scenarios I thought of while watching tonight's episode.

jwb0323

Eko's brother, right before he killed Eko.

GenPion

Good point. If Jacob is the good guy, and MIB really just believes that all people are evil at heart, then maybe the end of the series is Jacob (and the candidate who would replace him) convincing the MIB that people are ultimately good and in the end they live happily ever after as hippie buddies out in a new Dharma-ville?

Baron Of Hell

hmmm If Jacob can't bring back the dead then who brought Dogen's son back from the dead and who was bringing people back from the dead in the temple?

Draven

I should have said "doesn't matter" over "no one cares." Seriously, what does the location of the Black Rock and the condition of the statue have to do with anything?

A big wave did it...great, glad we spent an episode solving that "mystery". Anything more important to address, writers? No? You'll get to it? Ok...running out of time here...

Groucho

Interesting that MIB's instructions to Richard were the same as Dogen's instructions to Sayid.

Brian Gentz

his body was on the island in the Nigerian plane

rocketsauce

Ok, I actually kind of agree with you, I wasn't foaming at the bit for those answers. I honestly thought you were being sarcastic because you worded with "no one cares".

Brian Gentz

Uh, how the black rock ended up and what broke the statue took 10 seconds not a whole episode. The point of this episode was to explain the Richard character which was one of the most important questions left. They also explained that the island's purpose was to keep MIB out of the rest of the world, and why people were brought to the island.

GenPion

I noticed that too.

I also just had a new theory pop into my brain - no idea if anyone else has mentioned this... SO, we now know that Jacob picked numbers for candidates and that these numbers contained many of the losties - well, what if this is the reason for the numbers bringing bad luck upon everyone in the normal timeline? The numbers WERE cursed and it was because of the influence of Jacob on their lives. Then in the alternate time-line the numbers are good because they no longer have any connection to Jacob and his manipulating powers on the island.

Matto1020

I disagree that The Dharma Initiative was a "thought up as we go" story that they are trying to write out.

The way I see it, TDI basically shows that the Losties are indeed NOT in Hell, Purgatory or Heaven. In fact, I think what Jacob was saying was that the island was the cork, or the dooryway, between Earth and Hell. If the MIB is the devil, then his release would simply mean spreading hell on Earth.

The Dharma Initiative is simply a group of scientists who found the island, realized it's crazy powers, and decided to study it.

MrX

I liked it a lot.

It would have been pretty funny if Jacob was the devil since the actor, Mark Pellegrino, is already playing the devil on Supernatural this year.

FatTony

I wish this wasn't the only Richard show we were going to get. I think they could have split it into two episodes. The first one appearing last season, featuring just Richard and the MIB (with no mention or appearance of Jacob), perhaps showing Richard throughout the years, interacting with other island inhabitants and still leaving it a mystery as to why he doesn't age. Then have one this season where it puts the other episode into perspective (e.g. all about the deal he made with Jacob). The end of the fifth season would have revealed MIB to be Jacob's nemesis.

But that's neither here nor there. I now firmly believe the island is the Garden of Eden and Jacob and MIB are Adam and Steve! Suck it, homophobes!!!

s}{ammer

Kinda surprised how nobody has mentioned that MIB told Richard that Jacob stole MIB's body and humanity or whatever. That going along with Ben taking orders from "Jacob" who was trapped in the cabin and also the fact that Dogen wanted to have MIB killed the same way as MIB wanted Jacob killed. To me it seems obvious that the writers want us to start questioning if Jacob is indeed the good guy.

I think in the end of the show we will find out that Jacob was the bad guy all along. MIB was just a guy who was imprisoned on the island and, as someone else stated, was put in the job of being the opposing force in the game by Jacob. If this plays out then we will see Flocke and the candidate leave the island and then perhaps all the alternate time line stuff happens, as someone else also stated, without evil Jacob influencing their lives.

Of course it could also be that Flocke/MIB loses and he and Jack are stuck on the island with Flocke still looking like Locke. Since it wouldn't be the first time in the series that those two were the opposing forces on the island.

outcastja

I also believe that time travel was in their plans from the very beginning. David Fury, who just wrote for the first season, said there was a line where Danielle said her research team was studying time, but the network wanted them to take that line out.

Also I remember Darlton say in one of their podcasts that they didn't want to go all sci-fi at the beginning of the show, so it wouldn't turn off viewers. Once they knew their end date, they went full speed ahead with all the crazy sci-fi stuff.

I personally don't need to know more about Dharma, like others have said, they're just a bunch of scientists that found the island and did experiments. You can speculate if Jacob brought them there or if they found it on their own. But other than that I don't know what's left of Dharma that needs to be explored, especially when last season was pretty much all about Dharma.

discostu1337

Yeah, it's pretty bad. The temple stuff was weak, and flash sideways are stupid. I miss old LOST where the 'others' were mysterious and they were on the beach.

JZ1276

Agreed
I also agree with anyone who said this might have been the best episode of Lost in it's entire run and with anyone who said seems like Dharma and the time travel plots were pointless. Still looking for answers for the whispers and how Richard can appear out of nowhere!

One more thing...WHY would Jacob be looking for his replacement BEFORE he was killed? Did he know Ben was going to kill him before it actually happened?