DJariya

New episode dropped today. La'An and Kirk hanging out in Downtown Toronto.

Cellar Door

I liked this episode a lot. I am always a little wary of time travel episodes, but this one was well done. Some good character development with both La'an and Kirk (even though it was alt-Kirk). Some have questioned whether the actor playing Kirk was right for the role, but I thought he did well in this episode. I liked that he charmed La'an and showed us a different side of her. And Christina Chong is fantastic as La'an.

The visit to Pelia was fun and I didn't see it coming until I saw the archeology sign.

One nitpick: After dispatching the Romulan and reassuring young Khan, La'an walks away and leaves a loaded gun in the boy's room. I mean, security should be there soon, but come on.

Goldberg74

Yup, same thought.

im not gonna lie, I’ll have to rewatch the ep as I nodded off here and there a bit, but I was not lost with the story.

I liked the recklessness that Kirk had driving the car, reminded me of Chris Pine’s Kirk driving in his movies.

Giantrobo

Ok ep. Though I'm noticing SNW is leaning even more into becoming SNW: La'An even more this season.

Pros:
-ALL PELIA SCENES
-The scene with Khan
-Time Cops!!
-Asshole Romulans!!

Cons:
-La'An and Alt-Kirk getting into each other. Gross.
-Hardly any Pike or anyone else not La'An.
-Having them end up in Toronto felt a bit too on the nose and META...

Bandoman

This episode was good, but not great. Anything would be at least a slight letdown after the powerhouse prior episode (Ad Astera per Aspera).

I really like Paul Wesley as Kirk. I don't want this show to become the "new TOS", but I enjoy his appearances.

Red Dog

I definitely enjoyed the Singh/Kirk interaction (and I actually think this young Kirk is pretty good in the role), but I tend to think they rely on time travel far too much.

And I guess they ret-conned when Khan came to power on Earth (from the 1990s to presumably the 2050s if this episode was supposed to take place in our present day). Though in a way that kind of makes sense if they want make the Eugenics Wars align with the WW3 described in First Contact. So then Spock was really wrong in 'Space Seed' by about 6 decades.

Giantrobo

Someone brought up, that the Eugenics War was on Earth, yet ALL of The Federation planets have banned Augmentation and copied Earth's prejudice against Augments as if the EW was on their planets. I guess they are being cautious? Or maybe Earth is being "Very American" and forcing their shit on everyone else? Anyway...If Paramount ever gets their money straight, i think it's time for a Eugenics war Made for TV Movie or Miniseries.

Red Dog

Well, Earth was one of the founding members of the Fed so just from that, Earth would have a huge influence on the direction of the Fed. So presumably that's a condition for membership after that. And who's to say that the Vulcans, Tellarittes, and Andorians didn't have the same issues as their tech advanced.

Giantrobo

Yes, but they're not the only Founders and the others seem to have not had the same EW issue. I think that was the point of the person who made the comment. And yes, as mentioned, the others could be in a "look what happened to Earth! Let's not let that happen here!" type cautious mode.

Red Dog

How do we know that? Maybe I could buy the Vulcans since we have more of their backstory/history, but we don't know much about Tellaritte and Andorian history.

Giantrobo

We don't know either way. But since nothing has been mentioned about any Eugenics Wars on their planets....

Josh-da-man

It has long been a subtext in the franchise that a lot of aliens view the Federation as favoring human values (and prejudices), going at least as far back as The Undiscovered Country, so that idea has always been out there.

I want to pitch an Assigment: Earth series that has Gary Seven weaving himself in and out of history, where each episode would cover one decade (1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, 2010s, 2020s, 2030s, 2040s, 2050s) leading up to first contact, which would cover things like the rise of Khan, the Eugenics Wars, and World War III. Throw in guest appearances by Flint, Guinan, Colonel Green, Vulcan observers, and create an actual future history for the franchise. Mix in stuff about the Temporal Cold War from Enterprise, Time Agents, and all of that other confusing shit and try to make sense of it all.

Josh-da-man

Sort of. Maybe.

The Eugenics Wars have always been a sticky point since the franchise lasted into the 1990s.

When the Voyager crew time-traveled to Earth in 1996 to hang out with Sarah Silverman, it was very much our Earth and didn't feel like it had been ravaged by some kind of catastrophic war.

Then an off-hand line in Deep Space Nine seemed to have kicked the Eugenics Wars into 22nd century. Though they said that was math mistake they made in the script stage that didn't get caught until the episode aired.

This episode, though, the time-traveling Romulan agent specifically said that Khan was supposed to emerge in the 1990s, but there had been so much time travel and interference in the timeline that his rise had been pushed back decades.

I'm not sure if they're have any kind of grand plan in mind, but there have been bits pieces about a Temporal War/Temporal Accords brought up in the various series. This could be something the revisit again.

Josh-da-man

This really got me to thinking after watching the episode. Maybe over-thinking.

Probably nothing.

But... La'an Noonien Singh is kind of a huge canon bomb. Just having a descendant of Khan on board the Enterprise seems a little twee. Having her romantically involved with Jim Kirk is really pushing the canon to its limits.

So it sort of got me thinking about this episode kind of deeply.

We already know that the timeline has been tampered with. Khan's birth has been pushed back decades. (Is the kid we saw a clone of the original, who might have been killed by a time traveler before his rise to power? Or is it the universe going all wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey in an attempt to reset a fixed point in time?)

La'an is a descendant of Khan, presumably the child version she met in the Institute.

Before that, Lieutenant Kirk and La'an had a discussion about how, if she resets the timeline, he will cease to exist.

What if this was foreshadowing?

Imagine La'an and Jim Kirk starting up a torrid affair in the future. It's hard to imagine Captain Kirk from "The Space Seed" and The Wrath of Khan having had an extended fling with a descendant of Khan.

But it happens anyway.

Now, in some future episode of SNW (or some kind of crossover event between various series), they have another time travel story where the timeline is reset so that the Eugenics Wars happen in the 1990s as they should have. Khan leaves Earth in 1996 aboard the Botany Bay. The cloned Khan from 2022 is never created, and never starts the line that leads to La'an's birth. Once the timeline is reset, she is completely wiped from history, and nobody, including Jim Kirk, remembers her.

So they've been building up a character that we care about over the course of the series, only to completely wipe her out of existence at some future point. It's almost diabolical.

Xiroteus

Fiction also appears to think they have to follow real-life timelines. Of course that doesn't match other shows that went back to the 90's though.

I don't recall them taking the Bell Riots back yet. It doesn't have to line up with real life.

Josh-da-man

Yeah, with Star Trek, everyone (from the fans to the producers) just needs to accept that it isn't our future being depicted in the various Star Trek series, and that, while it's Earth's future, it just isn't going to be our future.

Xiroteus

It's not working. They keep reconning events because we have reached our time. Bell Riots, World War Three, all these events are essential for Star Trek history and how they got to their current future.

Star Trek Picard season 2 was only a year away from the Bell Riots when there were supposed to be city camps etc.

I've seen this in other fiction of late. They are trying to aline our timeline with a fictional one and I'm not sure why. I guess if they want to do time travel stories they will have to go to their past or further back then when all this happened.

Giantrobo

I think the Romulan Spy kinda of gave a reason as it seems like Temporal War Shenanigans have been breaking and fixing the Star Trek Timelines. Temporal War shit does give writers a way to "adjust" or "fix" things in Canon much like "Multiverse" stuff does...

movieguru

I liked this episode. My favorite of this series so far. This is why single episode storylines are better. The only thing I'm curious about other than Khan's timeline was aren't they going to wonder whose body is lying there dead with a gunshot wound. The other thing is it didn't appear that Kirk could have won that much money playing chess, yet he seemed to splurge the winnings on a fairly large and costly hotel room instead of saying at a less expensive one in case they needed more money for later. That, and the hotel they went to was lax in asking for a photo id and a credit card to back up all incidental charges.

Cellar Door

If you're referring to the disguised Romulan, after being shot by La'an she activated some kind of device that caused her body to immediately sort of immolate or dissolve. It was very quick so you may not have noticed.

Xiroteus

I'm really liking getting a variety of stories. These first three episodes each remind me of something a lot of shows would drag out for several episodes.

movieguru

I was referring to kirk's body.

movieguru

They could have used this as a way to bring back Shatner as Kirk. If he wasn't killed here, he could have gone back with her to the real timeline. He would've had to be somewhat hidden for decades, but it would be an easy way to explain why Kirk looked much older than he did in Generations.

Deftones

Wouldn't them having fixed the timeline made his body disappear too?

Giantrobo

Kirk's body...maybe. but not that gun La'ann left. 😂🤣