Nick Martin

I'd rank Veronica Mars over Buffy, personally.

Reason being that Veronica herself is far more likeable, and I genuinely care about what happens to her. Plus, I love how it can become shockingly intense at times without being silly or campy the way Buffy seemed to be even in its most intense moments.

Veronica thinks she can mess around with the big boys, and sometimes learns (the hard way) that she is still a vulnerable, somewhat innocent kid .
Buffy, with her brute strength uses it to deal with everything she faces. If there's a problem, Buffy will beat it up (or at least threaten to beat it up) and make it go away. If that doesn't work, Willow will use magic on it. That sort of thing gets very dull.

I guess what I'm saying is that the supernatural elements of Buffy sometimes work against it. It allows the characters to have the easier way out most of the time. Story-wise, the two shows could not possibly be more different, but I think I prefer Veronica Mars because it's more realistic and believeable, given the situations the characters are in and how they are dealt with, or sometimes not.

egamipeaks

I think Buffy is best in season 4 and 5. Granted, I cared little for the Initiative plotline, but I think the writing, directing, acting was fantastic other than that. Also I think that these two seasons provided us with the best Joss episodes. "Restless" and "The Body" are probably the best of the whole show.

Working on Angel right now -- I am in season 4, so far I love this show too.

Slayer2005

Why am I not surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if you said you liked any show more than Buffy based on your post history.

I LOVE Veronica Mars, but it still has a long ways to go before I'd rank it's greatness along side Buffy or Angel. Buffy currently stands as my #1 greatest TV show of all time with Angel being a near tie (one more season and I think Angel might have taken the lead for me).

Veronica Mars season 1 vs. Buffy Season 1: Winner: Veronica Mars
Veronica Mars season 2 vs. Buffy Season 2: Winner: Buffy season 2.

VM needs a masterpiece of a season next season to be near even with Buffy season 3. It will have to pass both the first and second seasons overall. Then it'll need a good fourth season and a masterpiece 5th season. That's at the very least if it is to ever exceed Buffy. I just don't see VM being as epic in the long run as Buffy. It's posssible that I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

It could pull an Alias for all I know.

Yeah, it gets dull on Buffy to you, but not on Angel I suppose.

Buffy doesn't just have one cast memeber. Let's not forget that. It has the strongest supporting cast of just about any show that I've seen. You're comparing VM to one character who is NOT the entire show. I 100% disagree with your last statement.


It's also more realistic than Angel, but I guess your point about it being better because it's more realistic vanishes when Angel is brought into the equation.

Buffy and Angel are full of symbolism and metahpors thoughout. They are deeper than what is on the surface. They are like onions, they have many layers. I don't know how "deep" Veronica Mars really is or can be in comarison. As great as the show is I don't get quite the same "epic" feeling that Buffy & Angel give season after season. They seem to have a greater meaning. As great as character as Veronica Mars is there are PLENTY of great characters on Buffy besides Buffy herself. Several were ranked in top 10 sci-fi characters of all time. Infact, they made up about half of the list.

I'll just say both are great great shows with a great characters. VM may have a slightly better lead character, but Buffy's supporting cast bests VM's (which is also superb btw). VM has a bit of a ways to go before it can equal Buffy in my eyes. It's currently among some of my all time favorites though.

As of right now though I can't say VM has "passed" even Alias at this point when I really think about it. It will have to have a great 3rd season to do even that. It's about neck and neck with it though. I'd give it a slight edge when it comes to cast of characters, but early Alias was about as compelling as it gets and had fantastic villains.

Nick Martin

I don't watch "Alias". Never have and never will. Plus, "Angel" had nothing to do with this.

You seem to enjoy picking apart everything I say about anything Buffy related, even to the point of mentioning things I have said long ago, as if to hold them against me.

I'm sure that you could find some quote of mine somewhere in which I state that I DO NOT think Buffy and Angel are very similar at all. I think of them as "Cheers" and "Frasier" - existing in the same universe, but quite different overall.

Go ahead, search until you find whatever post I said that in. I know you will.

I said absolutely nothing about "Angel" at all, and I was basically just talking about the title characters - Buffy Summers and Veronica Mars. What does Veronica Mars, as a series, have ANYTHING to do with Angel, again as a series? Charisma Carpenter shows up? Joss Whedon makes a cameo but doesn't dance this time?

They have nothing to do with each other, other than the 'private eye' angle, and even that's a weak link.

Also, I don't know anything about these 'top 10' lists you mentioned, and it realy doesn't matter to me.

Have fun picking apart every little thing I have to say.

Slayer2005

No need to get upset. I didn't mean anything I said in a harsh way. Although, I'm not sure where you got that I ways saying Angel as a series has anything to do with Veronica Mars (then again Neither does Buffy really). My comparison was more Buffy vs. Angel related.

You mentioned some of the reasons why you liked VM more than Buffy and then I simply turned it around on you and showed how Angel is pretty much the same in that regard as Buffy, but for some reason your point doesn't apply to Angel, only to Buffy. Not sure why. I just wanted to call that to attention. If you're gonna bring up a point that is supposed to be a big negative about Buffy you should try to make sure the same doesn't apply to your all time favorite series too.

There's nothing wrong with liking VM more than Buffy though, but honestly you didn't even have to tell me that. I could've guessed it pretty easily. VM is a great show and I respect your opinion even though I feel you're a bit biased against Buffy. Buffy is a show about more than one character, so I don't feel it's fair that one of the biggest reasons for liking VM more is simply by comparing lead characters. Buffy isn't even MY favorite character on the show. It has a superb supporting cast that are every bit as important. Again, I respect your opinion, but I just felt some of your points needed to be replied to since the same applied to your favorite show, Angel.

Regarding your Alias comment, boy you are MISSING OUT by not being more open minded. The pilot episode is the single best pilot I've ever seen on ANY show. Blows away most feature films and the first couple of seasons can hang with the best of ANY show. One thing Buffy & Angel taught me is to not be narrow minded about watching things anymore (I originally avoided them and said what you said about Alias). Now, anything with great reviews I'll give a chance, because you never know when you'll find the next Buffy, Angel, Veronica Mars, Freaks & Geeks, Firefly, etc. I'll give almost any show a chance now that I'm more open minded. I never go into a series predjudging it anymore like I did with Buffy originally. I let that go and start from the beginning.

Judging based on the shows you like you are a PRIME candidate to be an Alias fan. Pretty much everyone I know who likes Buffy, Angel, Veronica Mars, Freaks & Geeks and Firefly LOVED Alias. Early on it's better than JJ's other series, Lost, which I've enjoyed a lot so far (only seen season 1 and a few from season 2).

So, I hope you'll open your mind about it in the future. I'd be curious about your opinion of the show. Sydney Bristow is a GREAT character. You'll like her WAY more than Buffy.

Nick Martin

My mother was an Alias nut, and watched every episode, but as it went on, she saw how convoluted it seemed to get, and also saw how the lead actors' personal lives damaged the show in one way or another. Every time she watched it, obviously I caught a few scenes here and there, and I maintain that I have no intention of watching it. LOST is a show that I feel is important to see through, from beginning to end, but I don't enjoy it nearly as much as some do. The name JJ Abrams means nothing to me, as I didn't see any of Felicity, and no one could pay me to sit though another Tom Cruise nightmare. I guess I'll check out whatever "Star Trek" idea he's got.

All I was saying is that the whole 'monster of the week' format of Buffy - a brainless demon shows up, growls a lot, and Buffy stakes it or has Willow perform some spell on it...it was the usual thing to do on that show, and it got a little dull. Even Buffy's final battle was a large-scale version of that monster of the week idea. You say that it has a more epic feel than Veronica Mars. Obviously - it's about saving the world from some demon or another, not revealing corruption and smashing conspiracies wide open.

What I like about the supporting cast of Veronica Mars is that you don't know everything about them. They don't all know each other that well, they don't get along very well. They all have an agenda of some sort. Buffy's supporting cast was all labelled from the beginning, and you knew who they were and what they were all about. No real mystery. They were always united - on the side of good or the side of evil. The geek, the science nerd, the rich bitch, the stuffy librarian, the goth chick, the cheerleader...whatever label you want to use.

I like them ALL a hell of a lot more than the slayer herself, but they aren't all very complex. Thankfully a few of them did evolve - it was important that they did.

Slayer2005

Alias did go dramatically downhill by season 4 (but it was still fairly entertaining simply because of how loved it was early on), BUT Seasons 1 & 2 are among the best seasons of TV out there. Season 3 was very entertaining as well, but it was missing Syndey's peronsl life and her entire life became the agency.

So yes, it went down hill by season 4, but it picked back up in season 5 and went out with a bang. I can't say their personal lives had anything to do with it going down hill though.

Tell me this. IF Veronica Mars went dramatically down hill in seasons 3 or 4 would you regret having watched seasons 1 & 2? If not, I still don't get why you would avoid giving Alias a shot.

If you watched the pilot you would probably be blown away like everyone else who gave it a chance, enough to continue on I believe. BUT, since you don't want to be addicted to Alias avoid EVER seeing the pilot, because it is fantastic and after seeing it you would have no choice but to continue.

Alias definitely isn't my favorite show of all time, but it hooked me quicker than almost any show (though I was hooked on VM with the pilot as welll). What you said about Lost (watching from beginning to end) applies to Alias too. No one should just watch random episodes or scenes of this show. Early Alias most of the episodes bled into the next one. The pilot sets up one of the most unique and coolest premises for show. Nearly every episode early on had a cliffhanger of some sort. Man, it was compelling stuff. Hooked my best friend, my cousin and my sister (as wel as me).

Personally, I think the pilot deserves a threatrical release. Great premise, great characters, perfect lead character and awesome twists and turns.

The name JJ Abrams meant nothing to me either until I started watching Alias. He's no Whedon, but he's good. His problem is he's not as great in the long run. He knows how to make a great premise and show great in the eary seasons. His shows hit their peak early. Despite Alias going down hill it's still very much worth watching. I definitely do not regret it. Infact, I've seen most of the seasons of Alias three times already (watching with other people who watched it from beginning to end with me).

I'd rank Sydney Bristow alongside Veronica Mars as one of my top 5 favorite leading female characters of all time. Like VM I genuinely cared what happened to her.

One final comment, Alias is better than Lost and I enjoyed Lost season 1 quite a bit.

otmetrud

Nick, I'll gang up on you with Slayer2005 to say that you do need to see Alias. A great show. The plots do get convoluted and the characters' relationships do get dangerously close to going over the top ... but to me, that's the whole charm of it. It is at heart a live-action comic book, but the writing and acting are spot on, at least for the first two seasons. It absolutely does not have the staying power of Buffy or Angel, as it starts showing its age fairly quickly. But damn, those first two seasons are unbelievably compelling and good. Seasons 3 and 4 though not great still were pretty good. I haven't seen S5 yet, anxiously awaiting its DVD release.

If you are solidly in the Buffy/Angel/Veronica Mars camp, I can't see any way you wouldn't be bowled over by Alias. It's essential viewing for those in our little corner of the world.

And yes, Alias was a much better show than Lost, IMO.

Nick Martin

Perhaps some day. Not any time soon, but some day.

Slayer2005

It's a damn fun show. I remember I kept putting off watching it for a long while despite reading so many glowing reviews (not to mention my Dad was in love with it as well). After awhile I finally I decided to just watch it since I had Netflix at the time and I couldn't believe I had waited so long.

I finished the first season in about a week and went onto the next immediately afterwards (and so on).

Nick Martin

It's available at my local video store for rent, so it's easily accessible.

Plus, I find it interesting that ANGEL writer/producer Jeffery Bell joined the crew - and brought along Amy Acker in a recurring role.

Slayer2005

Yeah, she was hardcore too. The season was a step up from seaosn 4.

Drew Goddard from Angel & Buffy also joined and wrote several episodes during season 5.

Nick Martin

I convinced my mother to watch ANGEL, which she loved, but hated the ending of the series for one single solitary reason:

She informed me of Acker's Alias role, and I kept up on what some of the writers had moved on to. Did you ever see the short lived Fox series "The Inside"?

The star of that show, Rachel Nichols, joined the Alias cast, and that is how I found out it was canceled. I was very pissed, because I was one (of very few) who really liked that show, which was from ANGEL / FIREFLY producer Tim Minear.

Patman

I've seen all 13 episodes of "The Inside" and those last few episodes got real dark.

Rocketdog2000

That I did not know. Might actaully have to watch the damn series now, just for Amy Acker's appearences.

Unlike Slayer2005, I did watch the pilot for Alias, and didn't really think all that much about it one way or the other - so I never got around to checking out the rest of the show.

Maybe it was just the timing of it. There's been more than one show I didn't think I'd have the slightest bit of interest in originally (..ahem...Buffy), even though others were telling me I'd probably love it, and I didn't come around to the party untill pretty late in the game.

Sometimes it can be nice to be proven wrong.

Slayer2005

Definitely do. Alias was MADE for viewing in order on DVD. It gets more and more compelling as it goes along. Nearly every episode early on ends with a cliffhanger. All kinds of crazy stuff going on. The pilot itself is superb for the story, the acting, the twists and everything else (basically it setup the premise flawlessly), but there is much more character development as the show moves along. You will come to truly appreciate the pilot once you begin to care more about the characters. You'll eventually look back on it with a sense of nostalgia. Trust me.

Part of what really make this show great besides Sydney being a kick ass secret spy trying to bring down evil is how she juggles her home life, her secret spy work and college. Her home life with her friends adds depth to her makes her feel more "real". Another great thing about the show is her new found relationship with her father who was never close to her. It was great to watch their relationship build from nothing to more of a father/daughter relationship as time went on. Of course there wer lots of problems along the way since her father is the great Jack Bristow.

Haven't seen The Inside, but I'll definitely have to check it out soon. We're keeping the thread alive until we get more Buffy talk from the Buffy newbie viewers.

Nick Martin

I would love to have seen them all.

Damn!

Minear said he wanted it to get a DVD release, but it's been a while since...

Spiderbite

My wife and I and still undergoing the seasons and episodes in order. We just finished the major crossover between Buffy (season 4 - episode: Pangs) and Angel (season 1 - episode: I Will Remember You) last night.

I am going to spoiler the rest for anyone who is watching the show for the first time as I am.

Slayer2005

Man, you speak for a lot of Buffy fans, including me, my best friend and my cousin. All of us prejudged the show at one time or another either because of the title, premise, the movie or all of the above. After I became hooked it was a real chore getting my best friend to give the show a chance. His first comment when we tried to get him to watch was "I don't watch that stupid shit." followed by him asking how we could like such crap. Well, eventually Buffy & Angel became his all time favorite shows (Firefly recently was added to his list of favorites as well) and he became a Whedonite like me.

The cool thing about getting into Buffy is it really opens your mind to giving other things a chance. If it weren't for him (and me) getting into Buffy I doubt he wouldv'e ever watched Alias, Smallville (especially this one), Dark Angel, 24 (we're on season 2), Vernoica Mars, etc. I mean when you come to the realization that you are a Buffy The Vampire Slayer fan, and a hardcore one at that, it makes you think "Hey, maybe I should be more open minded.". I remember he couldn't believe he was a Buffy fan at first. It grew on him fairly quickly.

Buffy shows that the title and premise does not matter. All that matters is that you have a quality cast of characters, great writing, competent filmmakers, a great creative driving force and a little heart. Heart & Charm is something that Buffy & Angel are both have in spades.

One great quote by Whedon (can't guarantee it's 100% exact word-for-word though) that I liked was: "I'd rather make a show that 100 people need to see than one that 1000 people would like to see.". That sums up his shows perfectly. All three of his series have an extremely loyal and hadcore fanbase that truly love his shows. So, he's accomplished what he wanted 100%. I also appreciate that he stands up for what he believes in. When the executives tried to get Whedon to change the title to "The Slayer" or something like (since they thought the original title would put people off). Whedon refused and baiscally said that he doesn't care to have any fans who are narrowminded enough to dismiss his show based on the title.

Brianluvdvd, you got plenty more gut wrenching scenes ahead on both series. "I Will Remember You" was definitely one of the most powerful episodes.

Rocketdog2000

If you like all those shows, the one I didn't see mentioned that you should check out sometime is Roswell. I started out watching that before I got turned on to Buffy, and it's still one of my favorites. Farscape is also another excellent show, you might appreciate, too.

Nick Martin

I loved Roswell when it aired. I was a bit let down by the lack of mention on CSI: Miami that two former Roswell actors are on it, often together: Adam Rodriguez (a season 3 regular - Isabel Evans' husband) and Brendan Fehr (Michael Guerin).

Some off-the-cuff remark for trivia's sake would have been nice, is all.

Smallville...never again. I don't have anything else to say about that.

Dark Angel was all right. I missed most of season 2 when it became too much about deformed mutants with an evil Major Kira. I don't miss it.

Farscape...heard a lot about it. Seen many interviews with the actors, lots of clips...no interest whatsoever. No amount of convincing will ever change that.

Rocketdog2000

Good catch on the CSI-Miami - I often forget about that. As for Farscape it falls under the "once you start watching it, you'll be hooked" catageory. I'd put John Chrichton (Ben Browder's character) right upside Mal Renyolds as one of my favorite "space rebels" any day.

Slayer2005

I liked Roswell as well, but I think I've only seen season 1. I have never showed it to my best friend though (not yet anyway). Like Smallville it's almost a guilty pleasure show for me. Probably because they both have a little more Dawson's Creek in them than they need, especially Roswell. I don't mind that aspect in a sci-fi/action/drama series, but it was a tad overdone. Still good though, so no complaints.

One thing that seemed missing from Roswell though was a truly great standout character. Many other show I love have really stand out characters (at least one). Roswell I don't think had any one standout character (though the cast was good). Smallville has Lex & Lionel (and you could say Clark, Lois and Chloe too). Buffy & Angel has pretty much the entire cast. Ditto for Veronica Mars. 24 has Jack Bauer and David Palmer. Alias has pretty much the entire cast (Sydney, Jack, Sloane, Sark, Dixon, Will, Marshall, Irina, Vaughn & Weiss). Dark Angel had Max, Logan & Joshua. The X-Files has Mulder & Scully. Firefly has its entire cast. Not that I'm complaining, but Roswell is probably the only show that I've liked where I don't know if I could pick out a favorite character.

Regarding Farscape, I've only seen bits and pieces and was immediately turned off with what I saw, but that was years ago, so I may give it another chance someday. I must say though that space sci-fi shows is usually a very hard sell for me. The only one I've ever really liked is Firefly and it never felt too "sci-fiey".

The last show I started watching was the new Battlestar Galactica. I've finished the mini series and the first four episodes. It definitely hasn't turned me off, but I'm not hooked yet either. The 4th episode almost hooked me though a couple of times. I haven't seen an episode in about 2 months now though and I usually devour a season of a show I really like in about a week. Hopefully it'll hook me soon when I start again. It's a good show, but I'm not sure if it's going to hook me yet. So far it lacks characters I care about (though I almost started to care a little in the 4th episode) and it seems like it's going to get repetitive with them constantly running away from Cylons in space.

About Smallville, though I like it overall, it is so incredibly deeply flawed it makes me appreciate the masterpieces Buffy & Angel even more. My best friend thinks the same. It's a fun and entertaining show and even has glimpses of greatness and potential greatness, but the writers either have no guts or they are really really limited in what they can and cannot do with this series. I tend to think it's the latter and that's too bad, because it has really limited the series and stopped it from ever coming close to its potential. Overall though it's been fun and entertaing because of the characters, but isn't near the level of Buffy or Angel. If only Joss Whedon made the series and had full control over it. It would've been incredible.

Should've added Xena to my lists of shows watched after Buffy. Hell, even after Buffy had opened my mind I didn't see myself liking Xena and didn't even pay much attention during the pilot (so I had to rewatch it). I just thought it seeemed too cheesy for me, but turns out it's a damn fun show with some very creative action and it grows on you. The cheese actually becomes apart of its charm and I was surprised how serious and dark it could get at times. I had no clue Xena was evil like Angel and was atoning for her sins. That right there made me more interested. She did some EVIL EVIL things. I'm talking Angel evil. The more I watched her the more I thought Xena would be a vampire's worst nightmare on Buffy or Angel. I think she could take on both Buffy and Angel and probably win. She was absolutely hardcore. I knew she was an ass kicking chick like Buffy, but she's definitely on another level.

One of the most awesome episodes I've seen of any show was Xena's "One Against An Army" (also loved "The Debt Pt. 1 & 2"). This episode not only had probably the greatest and most epic fight scene ever put on TV, but the episode itself was extremely poignant as well. Xena whopped that whole army by herself with that cool ass music playing and it just felt epic at the time. The amazing thing that is so different about this is that while Xena was whipping this army by herself while her best friend was dying she was brutally killing these guys. Rarely do you see humans being killed in such brutal fasion one by the star and hero of a series. She was slitting guys' throats, impaling them with her sword, having them burned with hot oil, etc. I think that's one thing that makes this hero stand out from the crowd on TV. She'll take a human life, but only if she has to (in battle).

Puzznic

I have also been meaning to check out Farscape but I every time I see parts while flipping channels it just looks cheap. The sets look like something out of a Cinemax softcore space porn movie like Emanuelle in Space.

I want to give it a watch from the beginning to give it a proper chance though.

Slayer2005

That's pretty much exactly what I thought too. It appeared to have poor lighting too based on what little I saw. I think a poor set can be made to look much better with good lighting. It looked a bit flat and overlit when I saw it. I'm also not sure I can handle the muppets either. It worked on Angel, once, because it was funny, but I can't see myself being able to take a show seriously with muppets as characters. I could be wrong, but that's just what I feel. I also generally cringe at humanoid aliens on space shows. I'm not sure why that is though. I'm not sure if it's the designs I don't like, the bizarreness or what. I love most of the creatures on Buffy and Angel though. They knew how to make it all work for me.

Part of what's great about Buffy and Angel is that they're more than just monster/monster hunter shows. They're grounded in reality in some ways and not in other ways. Whedon did the same with Firefly. He made a space sci-fi series that didn't feel like a typical sci-fiey space series at all. It felt like a great action/character drama series that happened to take place in the future.

I'll probably give it a shot in the future to be fair. I hate it when someone comes to a premature judgement on my favorite series, so I try to be fair and give show a real chance. I'll get to it eventually.