Michael Corvin

I finally tried out Groov this weekend. Pretty solid but definitely needs some polish. It's hard to get jazzed to play a game that looks like Asteroids. The music integration is pretty cool though.

superfro

I'm a simple man.

Actually...the music thing is THE factor for me. The kid nailed exactly what he wanted to do, so props for that. My only issue is that it makes me want more.

Decker

From Joystiq:

Some creators disappointed with XNA Community Games sales

by Justin McElroy

If indie devs thought that XNA Community Games would be the ticket to untold riches ... well, let's just say they may not want to toss their name tags and hairnets just yet. Mobeen Fikree, the force behind caffeine monster software, revealed his XNA sales numbers, which he deemed disappointing. Of the 7595 downloads his game DUOtrix had received, only 157 were converted into full purchases, a conversion rate of around two percent. Unsurprisingly, Fikree doesn't think its an issue with his game's quality, rather blaming the lack of a user-rating system that allows the best games to rise to the top.

Though it didn't disclose all the numbers, Mommy's Best Games agreed, saying that the sales of fairly well-publicized Weapon of Choice fell well below expectations. Are you an XNA dev with numbers to share? Let us know!


I think they make a good point, to a degree at least. The user interface is terrible. Mostly though even the good ones are overpriced. Weapon Of Choice looked nice, but I don't want to spend 800 points on it. I thought Carnyvalle was impressive and easily worth 400 points. The rest look okay, but lack the polish of XBLA games and I prefer using my points elsewhere. If these developers expect attach rates anywhere near XBLA rates, they're out of their minds. No Achievements, No Quality-control, Difficult to navigae menues and the complete lack of reviews make it a total wildreness out there. It will be a long time until we see a "hit" community game, I think.

Spicollidriver1

Yeah when this was first mentioned I thought this should be like the app store but it does feel like they dropped the ball. Also I think they would be served well to have a community game release date to help generate a little excitement. Everyone knows when XBLA games come out and jump on them as soon as possible.

xmiyux

I absolutely agree they need some kind of rating system. I try to highlight the good games to those who seem interested (Blow, Galax-E-Mail, NextWar: The Quest For Earth) but the simple fact is that it is a chore to go through them. Every time i boot up my 360 i check the recent community games and download all the demos i haven't tried yet but the thing only lists the last 5 or 7 (and it includes new versions of the older games in this list) so it is easy to miss some.

For instance, i have never seen the game that guy made and i actively hunt out CGs. How many are flying under the average gamers radar?

Price point is also a big issue. 800 points for a CG immediately turns me off. 200 points, if it is decent at all, definitely ropes me in.


Also, in that vein, check out NextWar. It is a pretty decent tower defense game for 200 points.

mr.snowmizer

Um, Mobeen Fikree, when a game has 98% of people who download the trial pass up a full purchase, the problem isn't with a lack of user-ratings.

As one of those 98%, let me say... there's a reason there's no blockbuster sales numbers for games that make you unnaturally control two things at once (and why there are so few of them made by 'real' game makers).

They're annoying and potentially headache-inducing, not fun.

Decker

A follow-up/copy-cat story today:

GamerBytes study shows disappointing sales for XNA Community Games

Considering certain independent iPhone App developers have been making towering mountains of cash, you'd think that the financial status of the XNA Community Games market would be just as favorable. However, according to a recent report from GamerBytes, who dug up the sales figures of a number of XNA titles, this couldn't be further from the truth -- the combined sales total of the 24 titles they tracked was a mere 23,907 purchases, with an underwhelming conversion rate (ratio of people who purchase a game to total demo downloads) of just 7.1 percent.

Of course, with no impetus on the developers to reveal their financial data, the report is far from conclusive. When queried about their sales statistics, many of the developers gave rough estimates (or no answer at all), and a few of the service's "high-profile" titles, such as Colosseum and CarneyVale: Showtime, are completely unaccounted for. Take GamerBytes' conclusions with a few grains of salt, but based on their research, it certainly seems XNA Community Games have gotten off to a molasses-slow start.

Mok

I have been kind of disenchanted with XBLA of late. So I checked out some Community games. I ended up buying Miner Dig Deep, and Supercow. I highly recommend both. Miner Dig Deep is highly addictive, Supercow is a platformer with amazing graphics.

Supercow - http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/ga...01d0?cid=SLink

Dig Deep Miner - http://marketplace.xbox.com/en-US/ga...0182?cid=SLink

Decker

I'll check them out. Funny how something like Rocket Fart or Drink & Puke can get publicity, but those two I've never heard of.

Groucho

I think I've said it before, but I agree with the above comments about a user-rating system. For the average Live user, they go to that section and it's FLOODED with games. So they try one -- if it sucks (and a lot of them do), they aren't about to come back for more.

Decker

You're 100% right on Supercow. While I don't think it's as cute & clever as it thinks it is, it's a very nice, well-crafted platformer and well worth 400 points. Bought it the moment the trial ended (only my second Community Game purchase, after CarneyVale Showtime). I'm really impressed with the quality and polish of this game. It's like a solid Sega Genesis platformer, but with much nicer graphics (and I mean that as a complement -- it's old-skool).

Dig Deep Miner, I don't know yet. It seems to have some gameplay depth (pardon the pun), but I'm not really feeling it. I think it feels like it moves too slow. Perhaps I'm just too used to Dig Dug and Mr Driller.

Mok

Yeah Supercow is fun. At first it may seem easy, but it does get more challenging. I also like how Supercow got around the no achievements by adding there own in game trophies. Dig Deep Miner on the other hand eats up most of my gaming time. It can be a pain every time you run out of kerosene, and have to go up top and buy more. For some reason I love it, the best thing to buy is elevators and dig deep down into the mine. The deeper you go the more new resources you will find.

Decker

I just found this blog entry from the developers of Weapon of Choice.

Very candid and more than a little depressing. It has me thisclose to buying the game ouit of pity. Don't get me wrong, I liked the game, but I jsut never pulled the trigger (and to be honest, I thought it was one of those 800 point games). Anyway, that blog really made me think. Some people are really struggling to put good games out there. Too bad they get lost among the Rocket Farts of the XNA.

Mok

I agree that was really sad to read. I remember when the game came out, the 1up guys liked it a lot. They even compared it Contra. I always wanted to give the demo a try. Hell it's only 400pts, I have spent a lot more on worst.

Michael Corvin

Interesting read but this part has me wondering:
I thought XNA is supposed to be for the hobbyists. Looks like this guy decided to make it his full time career, and struck out. I don't know the minutia of it, but if he has his own company, is an official designer & has some employees, then why didn't he shoot for a full-fledged XBLA game?

It didn't read 'sad' to me, it read 'bitter.'

Groucho

Yes, I think it was a mistake to try and run a development company against the community games. But I also don't think that Microsoft was truly upfront with the development groups about how the system would work.

The current system of "throwing everything in same woodpile" doesn't benefit gamers, and it doesn't benefit developers. Microsoft has let down EVERYBODY including themselves.

Decker

Well Said, Groucho. I'm sure so many good games get lost in the shuffle. Still, I don't think that Weapon of Choice really can blame that for its poor sales, as it was one of five or six games that were prominently featured as "Award Finalists" for months in the Marketplace, under the Community Games section. If he can't sell a very good game with that sort of promotion and a fair price point, what chance do the Dig Deep Miners of the world have?

How are the independent game apps in the Itunes store handled?

tonyc3742

A couple challenges Community Games have, solely imho...

* No achievements. It shouldn't really matter, but it does. I'll admit some games have included achievement-like things as a replacement, which is cool.

* Too much chaff. I don't necessarily think MS needs to vet every title for 'quality' (except for that Click here-You win ripoff), but there needs to be some way that better/deeper/more fun games can rise to the top.

* Too much of everything. I haven't browsed Community Games in a long time simply because it takes so damn long to cycle through, pick a game, load the description and screenshots.
I think XBL needs a way to say "ignore". If I click on this one title or app in Marketplace or Community, I don't ever want to see it again. (Same with Download History, I no longer need to see that I downloaded the GTA4 box art reveal video).
Failing that, just speed up browsing on Xbox.com or the console itself.

I'll try WoC again, I did play the demo and enjoyed it, and Miner Dig Deep was pretty addictive as well.

I would be interested in finding out how many Community Games makers are kids or young people knocking together a game in four weekends, and how many are actual Companies who are trying to Make it Big.

superfro

Exactly. My take on the situation as well. For example, on the other side of that spectrum look at Groov. The kid that made that is in college and while it took him a fair amount of time and work to get the game done, it was essentially a side project for him. Not a job, and certainly not his carreer. I kind of thought the majority of the stuff coming from XNA would be of simillar circumstances.

Something that's missing from that blog post is the sell through ratio vs. the demo downloads. I don't just want to know how many units the game sold, I'd love to know how many units of the demo were downloaded. Without having that info, it's kind of hard to see where the problem is. If 50,000 people checked out the demo and 5,000 bought the full game, that's not Microsoft's issue.

Decker

You'll see on the previous page, post #53, I quote a source whose game had a 2% attach rate, which is pretty terrible. Still some of the issue may be, just IMO, the use of points instead of cash. Hear me out: I think people purchase points and budget accordingly for XBLA games and DLC. Most don't have Community Games earmarked for purchase. Since they've never bought one, they may not be sure what they are exactl, (and like the carson said, the lack of Achievements may make some feel they're not getting a "real game" for their purchase.
Mostly though it's the poor distribution and the underground feeling of the XNA games that I think make them sell so poorly. If they were prominently featured on the Dashboard, if reviews and previews were available on gaming websites, I bet they'd sell a lot better.

Me, I have MANY full XBLA games and only two Community games (CarneyVale SHowtime and Supercow). I think I need to buy a couple more and throw these poor folks a bone.

Spicollidriver1

I tell you what if we don't start getting some arcade games I actually give a crap about I might have to start buying community games to make up for it.

Mok

That's what I have been doing.

Decker

You know another reason for the low attach rate? The demos are often terrible. They are so brief and limited, you still have no idea what the game is like at the end.
Perfect example : R/C Air Sim. Usually at or near the top in purchases, per Maj. Nelson. I played the demo. My kids liked it, but it was over in a few minutes and only showed one plane, one enviornment and you didn't really do much. I STILL haven't seen a single review of the game. How am I supposed to know if it's even worth the $2.50 they're asking for it?

Decker

True to my word, I gave the demo of WoC another try and sure enough, it is a HELL of a polished game. If it were an XBLA game I'd certainly buy it at 800 points. For a Community Game, I have no qualms buying it at 400, so I did.

Also checked out a new one : Jammer. Only messed around with it for a minute, but it seems like a decent Frequency/Amplitude rip-off. If you like rhythm games and enjoy the original music enough, it might be worth checking it out.

xmiyux

To continue my pimping of the game.... Go get the game Blow. It is and awesome puzzler, tons of variety, good graphics, clever game, excellent soundtrack... It is a complete package well worth the money.