dsa_shea

I understand that but it seems like some posters are trying to make their case on why people shouldn't go Blu. I like having some type of HDM out there and wish people wouldn't try to downsell it now simply because HD-Dvd wasn't the "chosen" format. I didn't like the fact that the Red Sox won the World Series but I also haven't spent any time on their boards proclaiming why they shouldn't be the champs or why people shouldn't be a fan.

Gizmo

I imagine not too many are pleased that they now have to have forced region coding, unfinished specs, 50GB discs with no extras, and an entire movie format that is pretty much controlled by Sony, a movie studio, who has had many failed formats before (UMD, MiniDisc to name a few).

RockStrongo

While I agree with you and support Bluray.....their opinions are just as valid and they have the right to post (given they stay within forum rules).

I am sure they will most likely be outnumbered in a topic of this nature though.

chanster

Personally I think you have made some very good observations in but your calling out people to leave who aren't walking goose-step to the HD future according to your liking is regrettable. Honestly I don't care what format survives, as long as the hardware and software is affordable. Right now, (I mean right now) Blu Ray hardware isn't affordable for most people.

Furthermore, if you think studios will support a niche product for a long time without the impetus of BDA support for financial incentives, marketing cash, whatever else is I believe, naive.

If and when BDA marketing "support" and "incentives" dry up, lets see how many studios stick with Blu Ray. I'm not saying they will go to HD DVD, nor do I care if they do, but they will just rely on DVDs, On Demand type purcahses or something else that we aren't using now.

Tracer Bullet

Last time I checked this wasn't a Blu-Ray board.

dsa_shea

What has Toshiba done for me lately? I agree that UMD isn't the greatest format but it does serve its purpose for handheld gaming. I don't think Sony was ever trying to make UMD the next big thing but simply create a medium that would work with the PSP. What is wrong with that? And if you talk with people about Beta many will tell you that the biggest reason it failed, other than porn, was because you couldn't record on slow speed and blank tapes were expensive (20-25 bucks apiece) in those days. Region coding has been mostly standard since dvds have been around and only the astute collectors really go out of their way to get things from other regions. The average consumers, and we don't fall in this category, don't care much about region coding and probably don't put much weight on extras either. But can we honestly say that HD-Dvd gave more extras than Blu-Ray has? Hd-Dvd had some cool features but I am sure with time we will see these same types of features with advancements to boot.

Gizmo

Everything you state is an opinion. Many studios were burned by UMD, including Universal. There is no reason for a 50GB disc to have 0 extras on it. No reason. 30GB discs by HD DVD were able to have many features (obviously depending on the film and the previous SD version). If Region coding wasn't important you wouldn't have people buying Oppo players.

I (and I'm not alone) just fear a format being run by Sony. They will always be first in line to press their movies and they will have the say so over just about everything regarding Blu-ray.

dsa_shea

What is the difference between them using a 50gb disc and a 30gb disc? If the manufacturer chooses to use it then fine. You can't tell me that all 50 gb Blu-Ray discs have zero extras. Usually this problem is related to a particular studio and has NOTHING to do with Blu-Ray itself. I've seen my fair share of half ass HD-Dvd releases when it comes to special features but I don't blame that on HD-Dvd or their 30gb discs. Also, do you have any UMDs for personal use? I have some and the work fine for exactly what they are made for. Maybe they didn't storm the world like some people feel they should have but they serve their purpose. I'm not afraid of Sony as a consumer of electronics any more than I am of Ford as a vehicle manufacturer or General Electric as a maker or toasters and blenders. And region coding is really only important to a fraction of dvd purchasers. You should know that. I wouldn't mind seeing region coding go bye bye but I also understand why some studios feel the need to protect their investments from areas where the title hasn't seen a theatrical release. I respect your opinion on a lot of things but you simply hate Sony and that shines like the light on the day that Jesus was born.

MrDs10e

Why does talking about the competitive situation in the market, and what BD needs to do to succeed, and what challenges it will face, equal "not supporting HD"? That makes no sense. I support HD, which is why I want to see BDA take a strategy that will allow the tech to thrive. This"you should buy a Blu-ray player regardless of price or you hate HD" attitude is silly. The fact is HD DOES compete in the marketplace with upconverting DVD players, and now that BD's BIGGEST competition, HDDVD, appears to be on its way out, the fact that average consumers will compare BD to upconverted SDDVD IS true and relevant. It may not be to the 1%'ers GoldenEyed, GoldenEared folks on this forum who are cutting edge techies. But it is relevant to 99% of the population. And us 1%ers are not a big enough market to keep Blu-ray alive. So you should care about these things, because if Blu-ray doesn't appeal to the mass consumer, it might disappear, and we'll all lose out. This is not anti-BD talk. It is PRO-BD talk (no pun intended).

dsa_shea

I do support Blu-Ray. I would have continued supporting HD-Dvd had it been the format that studios wanted to back. I support HD media because I would like to further my collection and don't really want to go back to SD movies. I see the difference and understand that if a movie is going to be on my shelf for the next 5-20 years that I want to have the best version available at the time I made the purchase. I would like to see them lower some BD player prices for those that do not want to pay the higher prices but expecting them to do it in days is just silly.

mzupeman2

I want to get into blu-ray now as I surely can prefer a lot of HD content of the SD counterparts but yes, this is all relevant because upconverted SD is good enough for plenty of people.

Qui Gon Jim

You have to understand that the "war" is now BD vs. DVD. The HD DVD/BD situation was a skirmish, the wild card round to see who went to the Superbowl. The arguments wil no loger be "Why BD over HD DVD" but "why BD over DVD." Not everyone, in fact almost no one, is backing BD now, from a consumer standpoint. The battle for hearts and minds for BD has gone to the next level.

Wish all you want, but this talk will no go away, for a very long time.

MrDs10e

I see your point, and I'm by no means asking them to do it in days. I said by the end of 2008. I'm like you in that I would LIKE to have the best version of every movie, the best set-up possible. But also, I think that you, and I (and the BDA consortium) must understand that the masses of consumers who determine the success or failure of mainstream consumer electronics aren't that way. There is a "good enough" level for most people that is lower than the "best" level. IT takes more than "this is the BEST possible picture" to sell them. Price, convenience, and ease of use are all equal, if not larger, factors. And people have budgetary considerations to make (if I had unlimited discretionary income, I'd have bought a BD player and an HDDVD player the day they came out). But if BD really wants to be THE format for high def media, they must taken these things into account, and they don't have five years to do so. That's all I'm trying to say. I don't think we're that far apart in where we stand.

Qui Gon Jim

BZZZT.

Beta failed because Sony did not license the technology to other CEs and because VHS did, they were able to beat them on price. Beta was a superior (on paper) technology. Porn and recording length were an issue as well, but far less.

Thankfully, the BDA was smart enough to realize one company could not alone carry the burden. In fact, I wonder if there will be financial consequences for Toshiba with their sole support of HD DVD.

dsa_shea

Well then for the very least the people who post on this board should support Blu-Ray if it is going to take the support of millions to keep HD media available. Do you think that Public Enemy could have overcome a "Nation Of Millions" had Chuck D. and Flava Flav always maintained a state of discontent between them? I know that is a silly comparison but the general public would say the same thing if they were to see what we argue about on here.

DVD Polizei

I completely disagree about the streaming video future. People want hard copies. Not on their hard drives, but on a disc. And they want cool-looking cases and artwork. They want to touch and feel their collections, not just being aware they have a few thousands movies on a hard drive. This will be and has been, a geek-specific market if you will. Few people will embrace it.

In addition, I can't imagine streaming HD content over the nation's--not to mention the world's--unreliable bandwidth highway.

The bain of DVD manufacturers is having to replace all their equipment with totally new Blu-ray equipment, and higher Sony fees. Doesn't seem like a good proposition, unless Sony has the cash to compensate every single company that manufacturers DVDs and gives them a deal like they did WB. And I don't think they have that much cash to hand out at the front door, every single time a DVD manufacturer and movie studio comes through it. They are rather extended at the moment.

As to seeing the last SD-DVD releases by 2013, well, this is a tricky prediction. Because we don't even know if Blu-ray is going to last 5 years from now. A lot has to happen other than just "winning the war" with a competing format. Now Sony is on its own, and it has to convince the world, Blu-ray is the way.

Now, I don't mean to be pessimistic. I totally like Blu-ray. However, I don't appreciate Sony's past consumer relations (as I've stated before ad nauseum). And I will probably start buying a few Blu-ray discs anyway later this year, slowly building a Blu-ray collection. However, this doesn't mean I don't have serious doubts about Blu-ray at the moment.

Another factor which has briefly been mentioned, is what if a new HD format comes along and touts $10 discs at MSRP, and can support just as much storage as Blu-ray. Because you see, movie studios aren't in bed with Sony because they like them. If they see higher profits and a more massive consumer base, they will leave Sony. They will leave Blu-ray. And they will embrace something else. The key to any medium surviving in today's times, is it's cheapness. Look at memory cards for digital cameras. Hard drives. And so on. Keep your propriety format expensive because you want to maximize profits, and you'll end up in a corner, in a room, with the lights turned out.

HD Karma, I guess.

Qui Gon Jim

OK then. Why don't we all flip the finger to BD and back DVD. Honestly, what do you gain by trying to stifle conversation? It is natural for everyone to want to talk about the "what nows?" and you and a few others have already decided that "'X' will definitely happen, don't even talk about 'Y' or 'Z' because there is no chance of it happening. Because I said so. Sour grapes." This is honestly what the last 20 or 30 of your posts are coming off like.

There are some that say "Hallelujah! BD is the winner!" and there are some that say "Shit. BD is the winner." Who will be right? We won't know for a long time.

THIS, in a nutshell, describes BD fanboys to the best of my words. From the start of this there were some that had no doubt this would happen, even when HD DVD almost took BD out at the knees before it really launched. If reports are to be believed, this "victory" was one of a very slim margin, and could have easily gone the other way.

Keep an open mind. And please, stop telling people what to think or where they can think it.

Qui Gon Jim

I have a DVD collection with over 1000 titles. In the past year since adopting HD DVD, I have curtailed my DVD purchasing. The high prices of HDm made me be more selective. Now that HD DVD will decline, and honestly, even before this WB announcement, I began to question some of the stuff in my collection.

I think that the great era of movie collecting is on the decline. There will always be some of us around, but DVD sales are in decline. Just about every property that can be milked for a profit has been. The masses are starting to catch onto the fact that they are continuously being asked to re-purchase movies they already have. With VHS, you could sometimes justify that Disney or Star Wars re-release because the media wore out, but for many, a DVD of a movie they have is "good enough." I just don't know if even BD is enough to turn this ship around, and I doubt HD DVD would have been able to do it either.

I don't know that ANYTHING will supplant DVD for the forseable future (20 or so years). Not BD not downloads, nothing. Studios may have to be content with their new releases doing some decent money and enjoy a smaller pie than they have been accustomed to.

dsa_shea

You very well could be right.

PopcornTreeCt

I agree Qui Gon Jim. No matter what happens with Blu-ray and HD and whatever the future holds it will never equal the success DVD had.

RayChuang

I had a chance to view The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring Extended Edition DVD with an upconverting DVD player (a Sony model DVP-NS77H/B) and while it looks pretty good on a 1080p 50" LCD, you can still see some upconverting artifacts, especially the picture looks a tad out of focus. In contrast, a true Blu-ray disc has extremely sharp details even in the background. In short, the high-definition formats become superior when you go to 50" or larger screen sizes compared to upconverted 480p video from standard DVD's.

MrDs10e

I believe DVD will be gone (i.e. not sold at major big-box retailers, not released for new movies) by 2012, replaced by some kind of high-definition PHYSICAL media, whether it is Blu-ray or something yet to come. With the prices coming down the way they are, by 2010, practically everybody is going to have an HDTV and people are going to want HD media for their HDTVs. Of course, most of us will still have SDDVD collections for many years, as most people still had record collections for many years after cassettes took over, but it will be even more painless than that since, if it is BD that takes over, the players are backward-compatible. Can't stick an LP in your cassette player.

But I think we are many years of networking infrastructure and computer advancement away from downloads being a feasible replacement to physical media. Until you can download a full-length movie in full HD in less time than it takes to drive to the store with the AVERAGE home computer and internet service, downloads will remain small potatoes.

Ultimately, I think some kind of on-demand service over cable or satellite is more likely to supplant physical media than computer-based downloading. But again, I think cable and satellite companies are many years away from the infrastructure needed to have as many movies available on demand in HD as are stocked at the local Blockbuster or BestBuy, and being able to simultaneously transmit 10,000 different movies to 1,000,000 different homes.

chanster

First, that Sony DVD upconverter is a POS compared to a good upconverter. I had that model, bought it at Costco (well the silver one) and instead replaced with a Toshiba A-2. I'm sure any good upconverter would run circles around that Sony. I saw a world of difference.

Secondly, I would like to know how many screens are actually 50 or larger. I'm sure there a lot, but I'm guessing the 37 -46 inches are the majority size for most HDTV buyers.

But I do agree that focus is the issue I can spot with an upconverted DVD vs. HD media...whether most people can see that, I don't know.

darkside

I guarantee they could, but fine. Also, I said low end Denon not a $1000 player. I find it hard to believe people can't budget $150 -$200 on a halfway decent player if they have an HDTV. However, the kind of person that could be happy with a $40 garbage player was probably just as happy with VHS they just stopped making it and they had to upgrade.

I definitely agree Blu-ray is not for everyone and I understand many will never need it. That is why Blu-ray will never match the sales of DVD at its peak. It has a chance to be a strong option though. Decent quality HDTVs just get cheaper and if you spend a grand on an HDTV which many people seem to be doing you will find more and more people that want HD content on it.

rdclark

As I said, I think BD will become the format for collectors. But most people who watch movies aren't collectors. They watch broadcasts, or on-demand, or rent. If these people are offered an easy and cost-effective way, via a cheap STB or existing broadband connection, to stream thousands of 1080i titles to their HDTVs for a buck or two a pop, they'll take it.

Netflix thinks it'll work. TiVo/Amazon thinks it'll work.

I agree that Sony's control of the tools is a big scary monster. It's one reason I was rooting for HD-DVD. But even Sony will understand that growing the market helps everybody. And when disc manufacturers realize the SD market is dwindling, they'll pony up or die. They may need help, but the studios will be just as invested as Sony is in increasing manufacturing capacity and facilitating the end of dual inventories.

It's far too late for that. Any attempt to introduce a new format now would kill the HDM market for good, for everybody. None of the majors would go there, even if it were feasible to start a new format from scratch with zero installed base of players, which is a fantasy.