Brack

Run, run for the hills. Escape the persecution!

Ron G

I don't feel persecuted. I just feel like talking back, exercising my right to free speech and all that.

Brack

me too. it's funny how that works out for all of us.

Ron G

Great. I don't recall telling anyone to shut up. I did say I dismiss the opinions of people who don't like TOS, but I'm not asking them to shut up.

Brack

Was I implying that you told people to shut up? No, not really. Do you play this game?

DVD Josh

Ron G has no point. His bizarre belief that TOS represents the true Trek universe is not sustainable by simple facts. Roddenberry played a role in just about every Trek series, which continually changed "canon" from series to series, not to mention the movies.

Stop living Trek like a life and take it for what it is:

Just a TV show.

Ron G

And you don't seem to be able to discern my meaning from my words.

riley_dude

Get back to us when you see the whole movie but don't judge it until you do.

Ron G

I've seen enough of it and read enough about the footage that has been released to know that the characters have been changed in a way I do not like. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

And I do not think that TOS is all there is to Star Trek. But it's all there is to TOS, and this film is supposed to be based on TOS. The other incarnations don't really come into play.

Superboy

Wow, I can't believe we're reading all this, especially after the past 20 Years of Star Trek.

The Original Series was just too limited to carry on a lot of its formulas into future Trek series. The pompous, self-righteous inflation of Humanity's morals, ideals, and behaviors got old fast, and made for the worst episodes. It was much better when it was trying to engage either in grand space opera, social/political commentary, or interpersonal drama.

Interestingly enough, the most well-received Trek is that which has deviated the MOST from Gene Roddenberry's original vision. At its outset TNG was recycling much of the flawed storytelling of TOS (and some episodes entirely), and increased in popularity when it expanded upon what TOS got right.

DS9 was fantastically well received, but it was so far removed from the original vision of what Star Trek was supposed to be. That's because it took a familiar world, took the elements of what made it a success, and then expanded upon them. It was no longer a Utopian setting with perfect humans, and the universe operated on a much grander scale than even he imagined.

The problem with Voyager and Enterprise was that they took elements of what made the other series a success, and used them in a manner that was totally ineffectual in storytelling. It was as if someone took a bad sci-fi series, and then copy and pasted Star Trek imagery and ideas over everything. They also went back to that preachy, holier-than-thou storytelling.

For the movie, a re-imagining of everything isn't necessary. Nicer visuals are always appreciated - remember those awesome space battles in DS9 that you couldn't get in TOS, TNG, and Voyager? It'll be most successful if it can tell that sort of lovely, grand space opera that we love to see in Trek movies, and really tap into the audience's love of these characters. I remember something really smart Roger Ebert said about the Richard Donner Superman movie was that it assumed the audience was already so familiar with the character that it could play on that, to much success. We saw moments like that in Star Trek IV and VI, and those were probably the last excellent Trek movies that were released. In other words, pandering to the audience with this movie will ensure its failure.

Supermallet

The last excellent Trek movie was First Contact.

And Ron G, if you're not into the movie, fine. No one is forcing you to see it. Just shake your head and be on your way. But don't condescend to people who want to see it. Wanting to see Abrams' Star Trek =/= disrespecting the TOS. We can enjoy each thing for what it is. There are tons of flaws and problems in the TOS, but it was still a great show. The same possibility exists for this movie.

Personally, I grew up on TNG and think that it is the best example of the Trek universe, but each person has their own favorites. If this movie helps sustain Star Trek for a whole new group of people, then I can only see that being a good thing. They will become curious to see what the other shows and movies were about and will check them out. The TOS won't disappear because this movie is being made.

Superboy

Exactly. I don't see why people are complaining. I can always go out and buy the remastered TOS if I want to watch god Trek.

Superboy

IMHO, I thought it was just "okay". It was definitely very well-made, and appealed to people who don't normally watch Star Trek - much of the movie's exposition about the Borg and Federation were really smartly littered throughout the movie (although one of my friends called it the movie where the clones attack the Star Trek, and at the end they meet Spock). Great characters like Lily who put the audience right in the movie rounded out a stellar supporting cast. The writing was smart too - getting Worf back on the Enterprise was a totally logical scenario - why WOULDN'T the ship the Federation built to fight the Borg be at the front lines? The Enterprise crew all being aware of the events happening in the 21st Century, and all about the Phoenix - even where it's hidden - it is, after all, historical to them. But they are surprised by the man himself, because they've never met him,and it just goes to show how history portrays its heroes. Lastly, the action was great, the SFX still hold up to this day, and the movie was very well balanced...

Although...

The Borg Queen was a horrible villain. I didn't like how rushed the ending was, and how throughout the whole movie Data is both the center of attention and sidelined at the same time. I kept having deja vu to "Best of Both Worlds", especially how anti-climactic every moment felt. Some scenes felt horribly out of place, like the holodeck scene and Troi's drunken rambling. For a movie with a lot of fan service, it just got too gratuitous. The single most irritating moment of the movie for me though was when, once again, Data saves the day because he's THAT much better than everyone else. Those kinds of story aspects got really old during the series.

Trevor

I'm a long time ST fan, TOS, TNG, DS9, and most of the movies. I'm open to new interpretations, and excited that the new movie may get more people into or back into ST as a whole.

I'm definitely going to see the movie. But after seeing the trailer and reading a bit of the descriptions of the clips, I don't plan on liking the movie much. I hope I'm wrong, but it sounds like it could be awful.

But then again, I've been wrong almost every time lately before going to a movie. If I think a movie is going to be good, it sucks, and vice versa.

Deftones

maybe because you are lacking the ability to thoughtfully explain what you mean.

Ron G

The TOS characters are established and well-loved by Trek fans. If you're going to make a TOS film, then you should respect that preexisting fan base by making sure that you don't alter the characters in ways that will piss off that fan base.

There are plenty of ways that Abrams, who admits to not knowing much about TOS, could have pleased both fans like myself and those who will be seeing TOS depicted for the first time.

I don't want a 90210 Trek, and I definitely don't want a TNG Trek. For those whose favorite Trek is TNG, perhaps you should lobby Paramount to do something with those characters, but leave our characters as they were.

I can't put it any clearer than that. If you just don't like what I'm saying, too bad. This is my opinion, my opinion is shared by many TOS fans, and if people in this thread want this to be a gush-fest about Abrams-Trek, then maybe there should be two threads in here, one to gush and one to bash, so no one need read opinions they don't want to read.

bwvanh114

It's a re-imaging. Kinda like how there are 62 different versions of Batman or James Bond.

It's not a "philosophy".

I suppose you hated the new Battlestar Galactica because Starbuck is a woman.

Bandoman

I just can't take this thread seriously.

RoboDad

With all the back-and-forth over the past few pages, I'm not sure if this was already posted an I just missed it, so forgive me if this is old news.

Although I know many don't put much stock in him, I found Harry's thoughts at aintitcool.com to be very interesting. Maybe some of the "bashers" need to hold off for a bit, and see whether their perspective changes, as Harry's has.

Match

Blame Time Travel For Kirk's Scarred Psyche
http://io9.com/5095255/blame-time-tr...scarred-psyche

Supermallet

Once again, Ron, this isn't an "Us vs. Them" scenario. We're all Trek fans here. Is our opinion less important because we didn't see the TOS for the first time when we were 5 (and, for the record, I did watch the TOS as a young child, I just preferred TNG)? I'd be fine with another TNG movie, as long as it was better written than Nemesis. Since the original cast are all still alive and kicking, I wouldn't really see the point of a new cast at this point, but if they ever did that in the future, I'd keep an open mind about it. I want to see good stories in the Trek universe, and at this point, with the ridiculously strict adherence to continuity (something the actual shows didn't even stick to quite often), I'm more than happy to watch a good story regardless of how it deviates from what has been established.

It's not that we have a problem with you voicing your opinion. The problem is that in voicing it, you try to invalidate the opinions of people who have a different point of view, calling us fake Trek fans (or "not true" Trek fans) and implying that because we don't hold every single thing about the TOS sacred, or prefer TNG, DS9, or any other series, then we can't possibly be right about anything. Perhaps you can see how frustrating that is to us?

Then again, you haven't responded to one of my posts in several pages, so I don't expect you to start now.

Ron G

When people come into this thread belittling TOS or Trek fans, then it does turn into an us vs. them scenario. My first post dismissive of an opinion was *after* someone made a disparaging remark about Star Trek. That person's opinion became quickly irrelevant to me, because he (or she) has no stake in this argument in the first place.

And you are not accurately representing my argument, but rather lumping me in with someone who is mad that Kirk is seen driving a car or some other such minor thing. I've never said this film needs to respect everything about TOS, just that it needs to get the characters right and show some understanding of the history that's been established. It's those who have responded to me who have tried to recast my argument as something far more radical than it is, and it seems they have succeeded.

I'm also tired of the belittling that those of us who don't like this are receiving because we don't have an "open mind." This gets tiresome. An "open mind" isn't an absolute good. One should not always have an open mind. I know that's the dreck our culture tries to push, but it's simply not true. There are any number of things that you shouldn't be open to.

I *had* an open mind about this film until details started to leak out. The more I learned, the more my mind closed, because I was receiving information that made it impossible to keep my mind open. Changes have been made that have changed not only the characters but the dynamic that existed between them. The nonsense with the emo Kirk alone is enough to turn me off from this project. It's just too fundamental a change in the character to allow this film to capture what was most important in the original.

As for the fact that we've only seen the trailer, what we have seen is what the studio and the filmmakers thing is important about this film and which represents the product they want us to pay money to go see. The segments that have been shown to select audiences and reported on are an even better example of what Abrams claims to be offering his audience. And I don't like what I'm reading there, despite internet spin doctors trying to make it sound positive.

Now if you want to keep arguing with me, get my argument correct. Read what I say, and not the assumptions made by those who have responded to me who think I'm obsessing over the font used on the Enterprise hull or what side Kirk parts his hair on.

Superboy

Speaking of good Star Trek... A recent episode of Star Wars: The Clone Wars sounded like it had music from Star Trek II.

DVD Josh

Maybe that's because you think your opinion is far superior to anyone else's that no one could possibly be right but yourself. Therefore, most of us simply consider your words to be meaningless shilling for a show and universe you fail to completely understand.

Ron G

Please demonstrate that I do not understand Star Trek.