Jay G.

I think there's two factors that may lead one to think there's "no progression".

One is not understanding the 3-act structure of many trilogies. If you take a common example/explanation of the 3 act structure like boy meets girl/boy loses girl/boy wins girl back, TLJ was the "boy loses girl" act, which, if you're assuming the final point of the story is to have boy and girl together, seems like not only a lack of progress, but a regression. ESB has this too, where not only to most of the characters and plot not advance, but our heros are, collectively, in a worse position than where they started. The Rebellion had to flee their base, Han has been captured and taken away, and Luke lost two trials (cave and Vader). The only actual "progress" a character made is that Luke got some Jedi training, although it's explicitly stated to not be complete.

And the Jedi training leads to the second factor for the new ST, in that people didn't see the "progress" they expected, so think zero progress actually happened. For example, many people expected Rey to get trained by Luke, and see similar Rey/Luke sequences like we got Luke/Yoda sequences. They wanted this:


Instead, we got Luke refusing traditional training, and trying to steer Rey away from the path of the Jedi. Was there progress? Yes: Rey figured out she can't rely on someone else (lost parents/lost Jedi) to tell her what her place in the world is, and she has to decide on her own. Plus we see her explicitly reject Kylo's offer to join him on the Dark Side, and we see she has the ancient Jedi texts. But this isn't the progress some viewers wanted, they wanted a Jedi training montage. So since they didn't get the progress they expected, they don't see the progress that actually happened.

Mike86

Jay G.

How much progression between The Rebellion and The Empire happened in ESB?

Mike86

Artman

The way this is phrased you could say none - Rebels still in hiding, Empire on the hunt, etc However when Empire took place (three yrs later) allowed the characters to grow (individually and as a group) in that time...ultimately setting up the story for potential home run with the third film. The biggest mistake of this trilogy was having the first two films take place right after each other imo. We essentially have a giant opening arc with our first two films, and I'm guessing a packed third installment, which we'll wish took place over two films. It's just an odd execution compared to the first two trilogies.

Jay G.

Calling the wars a mere "backdrop" is exaggeration to the point of lying. The whole plot of the first Star Wars was a farm boy wanting to join the Rebellion trying to return a droid to a major member of the Rebellion, due to it having plans for a massive war weapon for the Empire, which would've secured it as an unstoppable force. If anything, the elements about The Force are playing second fiddle to this main adventure. Now, in ESB, after the initial battle the focus is narrowed to just a few characters, and The Force is brought more to the forefront, however ROTJ again puts the war front and center, with our heroes mainly on a spy/infiltration mission to make the new major weapon vulnerable to attack for the final battle. Sure, there's still plenty about Luke/Vader/Emperor and the Force, but that's on about equal footing with the war.

It's fine that you don't like TLJ, but your arguments against it, and the ST in general, aren't really holding water. There's progression in these films, it's just not the progression you may have explicitly expected or wanted.

Mike86

Toddarino

Jay G.

You know, I never considered that ESB is supposed to be 3 years after Star Wars. In my head, I always thought it was closer to a few months later. And the only real character change I can think of is the budding romantic tension between Han and Leia. Any other character development actually happened during the course of the film.

If it's actually 3 years in the story, why did it take Obi-Wan so long to send Luke to Yoda?

Jay G.

What is there actually "to do"? Most of the "saga" was wrapped up in episode 6. If no sequel trilogy had ever been made, there wouldn't be many unanswered questions or unresolved issues. Ep 9 just has to resolve the things introduced in Ep 7 and expanded upon in Ep 8.

Also, it still seems unlikely to me that Lucasfilm/Disney is going to stop with Episode 9. I fully expect an episode 10-12 trilogy at some point before the copyright on Star Wars expires. I wouldn't expect ep 12 to "wrap up" all the films before it anymore than I'm expecting ep 9 to.

Why? Isn't Kylo still Dark Side and in charge of the First Order? Why does the final boss have to be some shriveled/deformed old dude?I sometimes wonder about new viewers who watch the films starting with Episode 1, and how they feel about the redemption of Anakin after seeing him kill children in ROTS, participate in the genocide of an entire planet, and then kill a beloved character from episodes 1-3, his mentor, Obi-Wan. Do they feel Vader's last minute turn back to the light is earned?

Jay G.

I feel like TFA and TLJ are very character driven. Almost all the events in the films occur as a direct result of their actions. Finn and Rey both grow as characters in TFA, ending up in very different places from their origins in that film. Poe, Finn, and Rey all go through well defined character arcs in TLJ, and come out the other side with some sort of epiphany. Even Luke has a character arc, albeit one that starts in a place many fans hate. But just because it's not something you like doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Artman

The Jedi way is slow...a lot of playing the long game. (best I can come up with!) I guess in my head, having some significant time in between films helps fill things in better... in a way that I can't with TFA and TLJ... everything just feels...rushed. I mentioned it earlier (I didn't see any responses)... but my biggest issue w TLJ was that it should've been the opening crawl of the film - with them already on the new base at least a few months later. Spending 2.5 hrs for that to happen was the most frustrating thing for me. That said, TLJ is still the best looking SW film, and very watchable for sure. (the 2nd best of the new movies, miles better than the spinoffs) Just doesn't function very well as the 2nd film in a trilogy imo.

Artman

Yeah, it's definitely there.. I full expected his initial reluctance, than finally agreeing to train.. and eventually coming back at the end. In hindsight, I just wish it was really him in physical form - there would've been an added touch of him having to have lifted his x-wing out of the water (didn't even need to see the scene)...coming full circle.

milo bloom

That's always been my complaint - the idea of Luke needing to learn that battle is not always the best option is a reasonable plot idea, but I would have preferred to see him in actual physical battle taking down AT-ATs and such, but realizing it's just throwing around hardware, and then realizing he needs to outflank Kylo mentally, and then doing some kind of Force trick like he ended up doing on the salt planet.

I've always felt TLJ is a good Star Wars movie - in another timeline. Like another with vastly different episodes 1-7, not to mention the decades of comics, novels, games, etc that built up this specific idea of what a sequel trilogy would be. In that other timeline TLJ is a great Episode 8.
But not for the movies we grew up with. It just missed so many easy targets for what Star Wars movies do well.

I have faith that JJ can wrap this up well, as a conclusion to the saga, but also bringing TLJ into the fold.

Mike86

I will go as far as to say had Luke been physically present on Crait and not some bullshit projection I would probably be a lot more forgiving of the film's handling of his character. I still wouldn't have loved crochety old get off my island Luke, but had he been allowed to actually leave Ach-To and do something meaningful in physical form and not have died at the end it would have left me feeling somewhat better about his character. Truthfully it would have changed a lot of how I view the film. I still wouldn't love a lot of it but how Luke was treated is my number one complaint.

Toddarino

i Know it’s “fan service”, but I’ll never forgive JJ and Disney for not reuniting Han, Luke ,Leia, Chewbacca and Lando for one fucking scene.

Jay G.

Luke did do something meaningful; he delayed Kylo and the First Order long enough for everyone else to escape. What do you think a Luke that was physically there could've done differently?

I feel like people who want Luke physically there, even if the outcome was the same, just wanted to see Super Sayan Luke, flying around and doing "neat tricks" with his lightsaber, and felt as cheated as Kylo that one of their fantasies didn't happen. But that view diminishes the Force by thinking that only the physical, the material, is what matters, reducing the Force to the list of "superpowers" Rey lists off in the movie.

Mike86

Luke never did neat tricks or fancy moves. Why would that be what I'd want to see? I just feel like it would have more meaning to how I viewed him in that moment by having him motivated enough to leave Ach-To and go to be with Rey, Leia, and the Resistance to take a stand. I know we'll likely circle back to "but he did stand with them by creating a diversion" argument, but it just didn't work for me.

dex14

Jay G.

He did leave Ach-To and go to be with Rey, Leia, and the Resistance. He physically interacted with some of them. Just because his body wasn't there doesn't mean he wasn't there.

You make it sound like Luke was just too lazy to get off the damned couch. Luke expended an insane amount of energy to pull off only what the most powerful Force users could do, bridging lightyears, literally killing himself to perform the feat. Luke showed up and he went out defending his friends and family, on his own terms.

Mike86

That explanation is fine and well, but it doesn't change the fact that it didn't work for me. If it does for you that's fine and I'm not saying it can't for other people. I just didn't like it.

Jay G.

Your reactions are your own, and you're not wrong for not liking it, but your explanations for why you don't like it are wrong, because the reasoning isn't correct. You had a certain emotional reaction to how that scene played out, but I don't think you've properly thought about and reasoned through why you had that reaction.

One possibility is that you initially accepted Luke was physically there in his body, and when the reveal came, you felt tricked, like Kylo felt tricked, and instead of thinking "oh, that's a clever twist," you felt personally hurt that the scenes you just saw and so desperately wanted weren't "real" in the sense that you had thought they were. So you're reacting by thinking that since they weren't the scenes you initially thought they were and had wanted to see, that they don't have any impact at all, instead of simply having a different impact than what you originally thought.

Think about it this way: What if the fact that Luke was Force projecting hadn't been held back from the viewer, i.e. if Luke had said upfront to Leia and others that he was a Force projection? What if he had explained, "oh, my X-Wing wouldn't start," or his decision to come was made too late to travel physically via hyperspace, or some other conditions meant that he could only have arrive in time via Force projection? If the rest had played out the same way, would you still have been as upset?

Toddarino

Mike86

melasnus

LOL, ALL Star Wars discussions end up like this.