Travis McClain

I honestly wasn't paying any attention whatsoever to Star Wars until the early 90s, so I'll have to defer to others here. What came first: talk of Lucas's "vision," or fandom referring to the first three movie as "The Holy Trilogy?" Both terms have always bothered me, and I'd be curious to know what came first: sacrilegious elevation of three movies, or Lucas being presented as a far-seeing equal of Dr. King?

Josh-da-man

In ANH and ESB, it's obvious that Luke and Leia are set up for a romantic relationship. She was never meant to Luke's twin sister.

The thing is, at the time ESB was being made, there were plans for Luke to have a twin sister who had been hidden away in another part of the galaxy, but it wasn't Leia. This alluded to when Yoda tells Obi-Wan's ghost "There is another." The sister wasn't going to show up until Chapter 8, though.

When Lucas decided to close off the story in ROTJ, he shuffled that plot point onto Leia in a clumsy (and disturbing) way.

This plan, which was in effect while Empire Strikes Back was being filmed, was revealed by Gary Kurtz a while back. And can be read here.

JeremyM

He really should've just dropped the "other" storyline instead of shoe-horning it onto Leia. He's left loose ends all over the place and THAT is how he decided to wrap that one up?!? Yeesh. He even said it was just a throwaway line to make the audience think Luke could actually die in ESB.

jdslater1

Shhh! Keep that to yourself.

chanster

"Force echo"??? Quoting EU to establish precedence of a new concept in the PT?? Have fun retconning everything according to the official Lucasfilm approved gospel. Unfortunately, it doesn't fit the facts. Or wikipedia.

Leia specifically says her "real mom" died when she was very young. She didn't say, I never knew my mom - because that is exactly what Luke said in the conversation. The whole conversation - which is extremely important in Luke's decision to try to get to his dad - has been gutted by the PT. Leia was around for about 2 seconds - according to Sith - to make all these great images of her mom.

The biggest complaint is not some inconsistency regarding who trained who. Thats a straw man argument; whether somebody trained somebody else is inconsequential to the story. The issue of gutting Leia's conversation with Luke, and the introduction of the dumb midichlorian conversation (which was effectively dropped for the rest of the series) isn't inconsequential.

Artman

I agree the techinacal details are non factors compared to some of the larger story issues. (and general execution of the films themselves) ROTS worked too hard to close off loose ends when they would've been better left to our imagination. Let the Emperor see Anakin's charred corpse and leave in disgust (similar to Vader's walking away at the end of Empire), let Padme live, the final shot should've been them at Alderaan watching Obi-Wan take off with Luke. Sure fans would've complained we didn't get to see everything... Lucas should've paid even less attention to that then he did and just focus on making the strongest films.

Michael Corvin

Doesn't matter how it's justified, the Force went from a "hokey religion" in the original trilogy to a science in the PT.

Josh-da-man

The problem with the midi-chlorian scene is that Lucas included it in order to show how powerful Anakin was, and no other reason. So he changed the essential, established mythology in order to explain something that could have explained with nothing more than Qui-Gon "sensing" Anakin was strong with the force.

Never mind that, in the two prequels that followed AND the in the original trilogy, we never saw Anakin/Vader do anything remarkable that almost any other Jedi couldn't have done. Fuck, all he did the prequels was get his ass kicked, whine, and stab his fellow Jedis in the back.

But Lucas tends to get these weird bugs up his ass where he thinks he needs to explain things that don't need explaining, with the Vader shuttle scene added to the Empire Strikes Back Special Edition illustrating this perfectly.

Anubis2005X

So true, i hate that change...

clappj

Are the original/unaltered versions going to be included in this collection?

milo bloom

I wasn't quoting the EU when I used the term "Force echo", I haven't kept up with the SW EU in years. That's simply the explanation that I naturally come to when I consider the issue. In TESB Yoda says : "Through the Force, things you will see. Other places. The future...the past...old friends long gone." That's what I base my theory on, nothing more.

No.

georgec

Not bloody likely. Lucas considers the original versions to be his bastard children and he wants nothing to do with them.

lamphorn

Don't know the veracity of this, but I read somewhere that the REAL reason for the Special Editions and the disappearing of the original versions has to do with his divorce settlement. His ex supposedly gets a nice chunk of any future releases of the original films, but since the Special Editions are legally "new movies", he doesn't have to pay her when he releases them. Just the rumor/conspiracy theory, but I found it interesting and credible.

Ignohippo

In the early 90s, I was friends with a couple who ran a CG company. They had told me at the time that the settlement with Lucas' ex-wife was for 10 years after their divorce in 1983 and she would get 50% of anything he began during those 10 years. Around '92 they moved their business to LA in order to take all of the business ILM would not be able to cover due to the prequels and I lost touch with them. They had told me the prequels were coming years before anything was announced to the public. As it turns out, the prequels were announced in 1993.

Since he went through such great measures to make sure she didn't make money off of the prequels, it wouldn't surprise me if your info was correct. I don't know if the Special Editions could really be considered "new movies" though. If they are, I would think remasters would count as new as well. Also, it's my understanding that the settlement was only through 1993 and that she doesn't get residuals for anything anymore.

Damn, I really wish I knew more about that couple (I don't even remember their names now) but I believe they did work for Star Trek and Babylon 5. As a graphic artist, I'm fascinated by CGI and can't believe I didn't hit them up for more info back in the day. Doing some research, what I remember about them corresponds with a company called Foundation Imaging, but I'm not sure if that was them or not.

Josh-da-man

I don't think she could be denied royalties based on the special editions being considered new movies, and I doubt he could away with denying her monies from the special edition movies from a divorce settlement without having it get fought out in court. Unless there was some kind of loophole in the divorce agreement.

This theory about suppressing the original cuts of the movies to get out of paying Marcia sounds kind of dodgy.

Travis McClain

I'm no expert, and all I've got to go on is Internet speculation and hearsay, but it seems that any work Marcia Lucas would be entitled to any royalties based on her work, period. What may, however, have been at stake was whatever claim she may have had on George's profits from the films.

Interestingly, though, it was Star Wars that had the most obvious face lift for the Special Editions; the changes to The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi were generally fewer and less significant (though, with the 2004 DVD release, obviously that last, simple change of Shaw to Christiansen had enormous impact on the meaning of the whole thing). Was it because Lucas was more reluctant to change two films he hadn't directed? Was it because he was the most displeased with his own work? Or, now that you've brought it up, was it to help make the case that it's a different film from the one that Marcia Lucas had worked on in the 70s?

Jay G.

This was discussed earlier in the thread, and largely discounted. For one, he's re-released the original versions a dozen times or so since his divorce, including once on DVD. And as others have pointed out, it's highly unlikely the changes in the SE are enough to deem it a "new work" and make Marcia (or anyone else) ineligible for profits from it.

Jay G.

The two sequels had less changes made to them because initially only Star Wars was going to get the SE treatment. Then partway through the process Fox was apparently impressed enough that they decided to pony up some money to make changes to ESB and ROTJ as well. There was less money and less time to make such changes though.

b2net

and I heard there was a blu-ray coming out in September...

Mabuse

Here's what I said earlier in the thread:Changing SW in order to fuck her out of points seems impossible, because he'd be fucking dozens of people and there would have been a lawsuit by now. But a possibility that I am willing to entertain is that the divorce settlement stated that she was entitled to a certain amount of George's profits from the films. Something like this:

In addition to her profit participation "points" which are hers and hers alone, she is, as a term of the divorce, entitled to (let's say) 50% of all of George Lucas' profits from said film named Star Wars.

So George Lucas makes changes. He creates a derivative work called Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope. His profits from this derivative work are not subject to the terms of the divorce. The new derivative work is still very much like Star Wars so Marcia (and Spielberg and USC and everyone who got points) still get their share of profit participation; he can't stop that, but Marcia does not receive 50% of George's profits. She receives none of his profits from Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope because it is a new derivative work that he created 15 years after their divorce and that she has no part of.

I'm no lawyer, but anything goes in a divorce settlement. This scenario seems possible.

This is why when the OOT is released on DVD it is termed a "special feature".

Jay G.

A few points:

The original film had already been retitled Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope before she divorced him. The term "Special Edition" hadn't been used yet, but Lucas has dropped that from the recent video releases, meaning he's marketing and selling these films as Star Wars.

Any divorce settlement that dealt with future profits would likely deal with derivatives as well. For example, there were already two sequels and countless merchandising. I'm sure her lawyers would think of including new films and merchandise as part of potential future profits. In fact, if Ignohippo's 10 year limit is believed, that would better explain why the prequels took so long, since they were announced around 10 years after the divorce.

If slapping the title "special feature" on the unaltered trilogy as part of a release is enough to get Lucas out of paying Marcia, then he could do it again for the Blu-ray release. If not, then obviously since he released the DVD and paid her for it, he could do it again. However, it's much more likely that reason the unaltered trilogy was released as a special feature was because the transfer was a decades-old laserdisc master that couldn't possibly have held its own quality-wise as a standalone release. It was embarrassing enough as a special feature, it would've caused widespread consumer outrage as the main feature.

b2net

I imagine this thread will have 1000s of posts until the official content announcement.. and then 1000s later on what it does and does not contain.. I almost wonder if this should be in a Movie Talk section and not the HD section as this thread is really no longer about the Blu-ray at all... just saying...

Solid Snake

well it's still about wtf will be on it.

Jay G.

It's pretty much inevitable that any Star Wars Blu-ray thread will have a lot of discussion of the movies themselves, the changes, George Lucas, etc. If this got moved and a new Blu-ray thread for this release was started, that thread would be just as wildly "off-topic" as this one is soon enough.

georgec

From the forums at blu-ray.com, a Star Wars Insider magazine issue this summer will have the details on the special features of the set. June 15 is apparently the date it comes out.

http://plixi.com/p/94810293