Solid Snake

I dunno about that. People know who Bats is. They know he wouldn't take lightly the loss of someone. Especially at the hands of the Joker. It'd probably be a good shock for people to see that in some flashback.

Solid Snake

Too old for DKR Robin... but not too old for a Carrie Kelly in an adaptation for something else.

Mike86

I guess my point isn't necessarily that it matters if the audience knows that its the Jason Todd version of Robin being killed or whoever. Part of the problem with just throwing the audience into this established universe in my opinion is there's no reason to really care about the characters.

Audiences might know these characters but why do they really care if they die? There's been no build with these characters prior to this film so Warner/DC are largely depending on how much people care about the characters in general. It may or may not work effectively.

fumanstan

I think the Robin character is so well known in pop culture that he doesn't really need any sort of build up or development to make his death shocking or impactful. Batman really doesn't need the build up for people to care and jump right in.

Mike86

Robin is known but still. I think something like a character death means a lot more if the audience gets to know and cares about whoever it is. Just having a flashback and showing him getting killed will get the point across but I dunno. Just sort of takes some of the effectiveness out of it and feels like something being done just to be shocking because people don't expect something like that. Plus the fact that people seem to view Robin as a lame character and he's somewhat been sold that way (outside of the comics) for quite a while.

kgrogers1979

The point isn't that the audience is supposed to care about Robin. The point is just to show the impact Robin's death has on Batman (i.e. it drives him more batshit crazy than he already is). Robin is going to be a very minor character in this movie with probably no more than a couple minutes of screentime, so we're not really suppose to care about him.

RocShemp

Robin (whichever incarnation) will be the fridged "girlfriend" for Batman in this movie. Robin doesn't matter per sé. The effect the death has on Bruce Wayne is all that matters.

Solid Snake

Yeah. If the point is to see what breaks or affects Bats, it doesn't matter what history Robin has for the audience... it's the mere action of him dying and knowing how something like that affects Bats is enough to get an audience reaction.

Mike86

I guess that's sort of my point though. If we don't care then why is even being done? Basically just for shock value and to show that it fucks up Batman even more. I get it but its a bit of a cheap use of the character in my opinion.

kgrogers1979

There's more to it than just that. It will show a deep personal history between Batman and Joker. Without Joker killing Robin, Joker is just a crazy bad guy Batman keeps putting away. However, with Robin's death the connection between Batman and Joker becomes much deeper and personal.

Burton's Batman did something like that too by making Joker be the person who killed Bruce's parents to give Batman and Joker a more personal connection. Nolan's Batman and Joker were lacking in a personal connection, which while I liked Ledger's Joker, I do wish there would have been something more personal between them.

Basically the personal connection is what separates Joker from being "just a bad guy" to being "Batman's archenemy."

DaveyJoe

He killed Rachel.

Solid Snake

Not if we see how it affects Bats. We care for Robin cuz he is who he is in the culture. The act of him being killed is a big deal. More so if it's by Joker. We're affected by what the situation is and how close we are to Batman as an entity.

RocShemp

Actually, Nolan borrowed from the Burton/Hamm playbook when the Joker killed in The Dark Knight.

EDIT: DaveyJoe beat me to it.

kgrogers1979

True. I forgot about her, probably because I hate that character.

Solid Snake

I think it was something Nolan was corralled into having cuz of BB. So he did the best thing about it, killed the bitch.

The problem w/ it is even killing Rachel wasn't the big deal about it all. It sent Dent to hell. Corrupting the good that Gotham needed.

I really wish they wouldn't have rushed Dent so much. Would have been nice to see him snap and then the 3rd film would have been a Two-Face film, utilizing all of his connections and knowledge of the mobs.

DaveyJoe

Rachel was supposed to be Dent in the first movie but WB made Nolan change that when they noticed the script had no women.

RocShemp

That was the original plan but Nolan is anal about leaving things for sequels.

Nolan's gone on record that Rachel was not a studio imposition. She was originally envisioned as Harvey Dent but Nolan didn't like not having him become Two Face in BB so he rewrote Harvey as Rachel.

Then TDK was supposed to end with Harvey becoming Two Face and the Joker captured. The original idea being that in the next movie, the Joker escapes and Two Face goes on a rampage to kill the Joker. Then Nolan changed his mind because he felt the Two Face storyline had to be resolved in TDK instead of leaving it for a sequel. This was actually decided long before Heath Ledger passed away.

Solid Snake

OMG. That sounds so awesome. WTF. I would have loved to see that.

Mike86

True I suppose. I guess all the films have done that so it isn't as though this is the first time, but I've always found that a bit unnecessary. The Joker is supposed to be Batman's archenemy just because of who he is and the fact that he stands for everything Batman doesn't. I guess I get that they want to add that personal element but I don't think its really needed.

Solid Snake

There's nothing wrong w/ adding another layer to it though...

Mike86

Yeah. I think part of what made their dynamic interesting for a long time though was just the hatred that Batman had for The Joker just because of what he stands for and not necessarily because there was a personal element added.

Michael Corvin

Since we're talking Robin why don't we get Chris O'Donnell up in this bitch as Nightwing?

Solid Snake

Well pick and choose. Taking out a Robin, damaging Batgirl, killing Sarah Essen, torturing Gordon, etc. The list is varied.

hanshotfirst1138

In the stories I've read, they've fiddled with some origin stories here and there, but basically the Joker is a sort of unknowable evil who does evil things because he's evil, this sort of anarchic malevolence for the sake of itself.

kgrogers1979

Hatred is a pretty strong word. Batman never hated Joker until he killed Robin. Comics were pretty lighthearted up until the late 80s, so there wasn't any "dark and gritty" Batman beating the shit of Joker with his bare hands kind of stuff until after Robin was killed.