Supermallet

Stop looking at the movie as what you wanted it to be, and instead look at what it actually is. Burton dropped a stealth bomb on the moviegoing public with Batman Returns, and I honestly think it's one of his best films. It's perhaps the purest execution of his vision.

brayzie

It's hard to view it as just a homage to German expressionism when Burton played the camp factor up so high in it.

It dealt with darker subject matter but seemed, at the same time, to be marketed even more to kids with cartoony concepts like the army of penguins with rocket launchers.

It kind of seems like an immature imitation of the type of films it was inspired by. Max Shreck/Noseferatu, I get it. Like how some people think that film noir is showing wet streets, guys wearing fedoras, and calling women "dames."

@Why So Blu?

That clip was horrible. Why did the director show a close up shot of their asses twice?

Supermallet

Burton has always tempered his darkness with oddball touches. At the point of BR, his non-Batman filmography consisted of Frankenweenie (the original short), Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, Beetlejuice, and Edward Scissorhands.

moviefan2k4

That only served as a very small fraction of both the latter films, though. While I don't like it, I understand why Schumacher would use it. On a similar note, how many single women actually sleep naked, waiting for a costumed vigilante to show up on their balcony at night? That was completely off the map, but I loved Val's goofy grin.



No, my ticket to heaven's already been paid, and received.

brayzie

I agree with you on that note. It's a recurring trend in the films I've seen of his. But just because it's his trademark doesn't mean the result is always going to be successful.

Also, Danny DeVito as The Penguin was incredibly obnoxious. I realize that he was written that way on purpose, but his constant crass sexual innuendos and non-stop one liners got old and predictable fast.

Too many competing and conflicting aesthetics in that film for me to consider it one of his best.

RocShemp

We got a Luthor devoid picture in MOS. But we all know that eventually he'd have to show up. Hopefully they find a creative way to present him. For one, I hope he's the one who rebuilt Metropolis and uses that to encourage an anti-Superman sentiment.

EDIT: Here's a cool fan manip of Cranston as Luthor on the cover of Forbes.



This is how I hope Lex Luthor will be used.

DonnachaOne

Even better:



As one of my friends pointed out, the stigma of a bald and evil Cranston is too hard to overcome.

brayzie

Yeah, Cranston as Luthor in that mock up looks like a bad guy already. I like modern interpretations where Luthor is a suave guy with charisma who gets the public on his side, like a populist. I could see Billy Zane pulling that off.

Josh-da-man

Hrm. When I watch Batman, the Prince songs stands out and draw attention to themselves. Just seems weird watching the Joker jamming around to Prince songs... maybe if they had used 1999 or something...

Agreed that Batman is horribly dated. I can remember not being a huge fan of it at the time, though the rest of the world seemed transfixed with it. It was, in its own way, just as silly as the old 60s tv show.

I can also agree about Batman Returns being more interesting and a better film, though I don't think it's necessarily a good Batman film. Very strange and often surreal... when I saw it I knew it was German expressionism even though I didn't know what German expressionism was. Or maybe I did... had "Sprockets" been on SNL by then?

RocShemp

Although I agree that Zane looks the part (and has the vibe) of a suave Lex Luthor far better than Cranston, it's a moot point.

DonnachaOne

I know they'd never cast Zane, but a lad can hope. As for Cranston, I'll wait until an official confirmation comes out. So far everyone, even Rolling Stone, has reposted the same "Cosmic Book News" story. Just who the fuck are they? Until it's confirmed, Cranston is as official as Jim Caviezel and Lachy Hulme.

Mike86

I do get what you're saying but I still don't think it excuses the film. The film was supposed to be a sequel to Batman and not an excuse for Burton to make an arthouse film. People shouldn't have to have looked for a deeper meaning than it's a Batman film if you ask me. It would have been one thing had he wanted to make a film that was paying homage to German expressionism but to do it as a Batman film was dumb to me.

taffer

You're probably kidding, but of course that stuff won't happen anymore. Donner's Superman, and by extension, Superman Returns were all Silver Age Superman movies when Luthor was a goofy mad scientist.

The more modern businessman Luthor was introduced in the comics in 1986, and that's what this Luthor will be based on. He will be more like Michael Rosenbaum's Luthor from Smallville.

Speaking of which, I wish Rosenbaum would reprise the role in the movies. Cranston is just a bit too old. Luthor never struck me as being that old. Actually Luthor and Superman are supposed to be right around the same age since in some continuities they knew each other when they were kids.


I was never really one of those people. I realize that we have never actually seen modern businessman Luthor in the movies. Superman Returns was still based on the Silver Age. I don't want to see anymore of that, but I would love to see the modern Luthor on screen.

Also, I don't really believe that Luthor is going to really be the primary villain in these movies. He will probably just be behind the scenes of everything, being responsible for creating things like Metallo. Maybe if Luthor rebuilds Metropolis and wins the public opinion, he will run for the U.S. Presidency and win it like he did in the comics. Then maybe the final movie will be that the public discovers the truth about him, and it leads to his downfall.

Kind of like what Marvel is doing with Thanos in that Thanos is the behind the scenes villain in the Avengers movie.

cleaver

I think loving The Dark Knight and hating The Dark Knight Rises is like loving Goodfellas and hating Casino.

Why So Blu?

Joel Schumacher is a gay man.

Brack

Good analogy.

taffer

@ Batman 66 being better than Dark Knight Rises

Yes, I do realize Batman 66 was a very accurate portrayal of the Silver Age Batman comics of the time, but being more accurate doesn't necessarily mean a better movie. If Tim Burton's Batman has aged poorly, Adam West's Batman has aged even more poorly.

I would personally rank them:

Batman 89
Mask of the Phantasm
Batman Begins
Dark Knight
Dark Knight Rises
Batman Returns
Batman 66
Batman Forever
Batman & Robin

Yes, I am of the opinion that Nolan's Batman is overrated. I still like them, but they are just too overrated. They took seriousness and realism a bit too far and forgot to actually be fun at the same time. Also, I am of the opinion that they got progressively worse, so yes I do like Begins more than Dark Knight. Batman 89 is the best simply because it was the best blend of serious and fun, but then of course the sequels started going too far into the camp.

And this is coming from a lifelong Batman fan who has read and collected Batman comics since the mid 1980s. I have several thousand Batman comics.

Hokeyboy

My ranking of the live action films:

The Dark Knight
Batman Begins
Batman '66
The Dark Knight Rises
Batman Returns
Batman '89
Batman Forever
Batman & Robin

(And I'm not gonna whip out my ePeen about how many comics I've read and for how long)

My favorite alltime iteration of Batman is still the 60s TV show followed by the Arkham Asylum series of videogames. The former is sheer Technicolor pop fun, while the latter is the best balance of grim darkness and strong characterization with colorful, compelling villains and a family of allies.

majorjoe23

Should that last film batman and Robin? Unless BB is somehow second best and worst.

Hokeyboy

corrected

taffer

Yeah, if video games counted, then I would rank the Arkham series above all the movies. Those are what Nolan's movies should have been like.

TheMovieman

Oh, why not, here's mine:

1. Batman Begins
2. The Dark Knight
3. Batman: Mask of the Phantasm
4. Batman '89
5. The Dark Knight Rises
6. Batman Forever
7. Batman '66
8. Batman Returns
9. Batman & Robin

The Valeyard

Now that's a prayer I can believe in.


Here's my Bat List:

The Dark Knight
Batman Begins
Batman Returns
The Dark Knight Rises
Batman Forever
Batman '66 - Batman '89 (Tied)
Batman & Robin

cleaver

I'll do one to include more cartoons

The Dark Knight
The Dark Knight Rises
Batman Begins
Under the Red Hood
Batman 89
The Dark Knight Returns Part 1
The Dark Knight Returns Part 2
Batman Year One
Batman 66
Mask of the Phantasm
Batman Returns
Batman Forever
Batman & Robin

moviefan2k4

As great as that would be, it wouldn't work without Tom Welling. The two of them built that screen chemistry over a 7-year time span; I'd have a difficult time accepting Michael as Lex otherwise.