100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) Pt 2
#351
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
I wound up watching the Producers Cut of Halloween 6: The Curse of Michael Myers on Youtube, since the link was posted earlier and I had no idea it was available for viewing in full. Though the person uploaded everything in 9 parts until the ending, but someone else had uploaded the ending in two parts. So you can view the entire thing on there if you decide to check it out.
Anyway after finally seeing this infamous alternate cut of the film. Here are my opinions...
...,so overall the theatrical cut is actually the better version of the film. An even better version could result if some of the P.C. footage were added to the theatrical cut to flesh a few things out. Since there are some nice moments in the P.C., but overall the theatrical cut is far more effective.
The atmosphere of the film is what really makes it work, despite being a flawed overly plotted confusing film in general that tries to explain things best left up to the imagination. Things are just a tad less revealing in the theatrical cut and there are more questions than answers. It's a mess I guess, but an interesting one that's entertaining at least even if it's not a great film by any means. But that's what happens when you continue a film with an originally very simple uncomplicated premise and try to milk it to death.
I also hated this film greatly when I first saw it on pay per view when it was first released. It was a big "WTF" film almost similar to the sucker punch that is "Texas Chainsaw Massacre: The Next Generation". But after viewing it a couple times on t.v. over the years, I wound up liking some things about the film like the guitar score and the atmosphere. So on it's own terms, it's a decent film.
Anyway after finally seeing this infamous alternate cut of the film. Here are my opinions...
Spoiler:
...,so overall the theatrical cut is actually the better version of the film. An even better version could result if some of the P.C. footage were added to the theatrical cut to flesh a few things out. Since there are some nice moments in the P.C., but overall the theatrical cut is far more effective.
The atmosphere of the film is what really makes it work, despite being a flawed overly plotted confusing film in general that tries to explain things best left up to the imagination. Things are just a tad less revealing in the theatrical cut and there are more questions than answers. It's a mess I guess, but an interesting one that's entertaining at least even if it's not a great film by any means. But that's what happens when you continue a film with an originally very simple uncomplicated premise and try to milk it to death.
I also hated this film greatly when I first saw it on pay per view when it was first released. It was a big "WTF" film almost similar to the sucker punch that is "Texas Chainsaw Massacre: The Next Generation". But after viewing it a couple times on t.v. over the years, I wound up liking some things about the film like the guitar score and the atmosphere. So on it's own terms, it's a decent film.
#352
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
Also, I wanted to share with you guys that I was inspired by our back-and-forth about The Texas Chain Saw Massacre to write a User Showcase blog for Flickchart about the topic in which I contrast my experience with that movie and my experience with Casablanca. You can read it here if you're so inclined.
TCM is basically the Ramones of film. It's crude, largely stupid, simplistic, ugly, loud, obnoxious, etc. The Ramones barely knew how to play their instruments and Joey never hit a key in his life, but they are one of the most influential bands of all time. Bands like Green Day wouldn't even exist today if it weren't for the Ramones. Like the Ramones, TCM created the cliches. It is supposed to be a slice of life. If you were a fly on the wall in the van, you aren't going to learn the hopes and aspirations of the people in it. They are just young people on their way to stay in an old house. None are particularly likable. We really don't get to know much about them, just that something terrible is going to happen. That's all we know and that's all we need to know. When you have a title like that, you know what you are in for. There's no pretension to it at all. The budget came from the mafia and the profits made from Deep Throat. Despite all of this, there is indeed art to it. Other than the general mood of dread, there are great artistic moments I love in the film. The opening of the film with the flashbulbs taking pictures of the grisly art with the news voiceover. The monologue from the drunk at the cemetery and how he is photographed upside down, The shot of the van ever so tiny against the hot Texas sky as they pick up the hitchhiker. The dolly shot under the swing that follows Pam to the house. The sudden appearance of Leatherface. Jim Seidow's entire performance. The dinner when they get to the part where Sally completely freaks out and the extreme closeups of her eyes. Then of course, the set design.
Also, one has to consider the time when it was made and the national zeitgeist. Viet Nam was winding down, Watergate was heating up. It was barely a decade since the Kennedy assassination. Films were starting to get more graphic in these early years of the ratings system that supplanted the old Code. TV news was starting to get more graphic, as well (a year later would see the first broadcast of the Zapruder film), and tabloids reported more and more unsavory stories. I still remember the incredibly lurid True Crime magazines that littered the newsstands. TCM doesn't seem so much like a film but nearly a documentary. People weren't used to the gimmick of the fake "true" story, yet. While they are dated, the characters were very much of their time.
Just like Punk Rock, you either like it or you don't. It's not really something to "get." There's nothing wrong with that. On an aesthetic level, it's not really defensible unless you already have a predilection toward the genre. If it is cliche, it's because it created the cliches. It was one of the first slasher films. It introduced the use of tools into murder, especially the chainsaw. That particular tool is now diluted thanks to Scarface, parodies, and local haunted houses, but at the time it was the most shocking instrument possible. So extreme in its potential violence that it borders on abstract. The acting is not the best, but Sally's terror is palpable. Half the blood on her outfit was real.
I'm not trying to convince you to like it so much as not dismiss it. It is a very influential film in what is largely a trashy genre. For me, it is the ultimate example of what it is. It was made on a shoestring by amateurs both in front and behind the camera. Thirty-six plus year later, it is still discussed while many other films languish forgotten. I just thought it unfair to be held up to Casablanca. A tarantula will never be as cuddly as a puppy, but there are those of us who love tarantulas.
#354
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
You make a great point that I didn't get from your blog. TCM really does feel like you’re watching a movie while you’re watching it. It is almost sterile, which is exactly how I describe Kubrick's films. They're almost too technically accurate or the framing is just too perfect to immerse yourself. I find myself enjoying the technical aspect more than the story. So, yeah, I'll agree with you 100% on that point.
This and the fact that WoOz is one of the most popular costume sets in the history of trick-or-treating should be reason enough to count it as a horror movie! Not to mention the melting witch... (oops, should that have been spoilered???)
The point is not which did I select, or even how I felt about either film, but rather that it is intimidating to come into a first time viewing of any such "classic" of cinema because legions of viewers before you have already affirmed its timelessness and greatness. Several people who have dedicated much more of their time to exploring film than I have--including some very serious Horror fans--have leaped to my defense about being left cold by Massacre. It's personally encouraging, but my point isn't about whether I'm alone in not going gaga for this one film. Rather, my question is how any of us handles going into a film with such an established reputation--especially when we're in the minority.
Despite all of this, there is indeed art to it. Other than the general mood of dread, there are great artistic moments I love in the film. The opening of the film with the flashbulbs taking pictures of the grisly art with the news voiceover. [snip] Then of course, the set design.
Also, one has to consider the time when it was made and the national zeitgeist. Viet Nam was winding down, Watergate was heating up. It was barely a decade since the Kennedy assassination. Films were starting to get more graphic in these early years of the ratings system that supplanted the old Code. TV news was starting to get more graphic, as well (a year later would see the first broadcast of the Zapruder film), and tabloids reported more and more unsavory stories. I still remember the incredibly lurid True Crime magazines that littered the newsstands. TCM doesn't seem so much like a film but nearly a documentary. People weren't used to the gimmick of the fake "true" story, yet. While they are dated, the characters were very much of their time.
Just like Punk Rock, you either like it or you don't. It's not really something to "get." There's nothing wrong with that. On an aesthetic level, it's not really defensible unless you already have a predilection toward the genre.
I'm not trying to convince you to like it so much as not dismiss it. It is a very influential film in what is largely a trashy genre. [snip] I just thought it unfair to be held up to Casablanca. A tarantula will never be as cuddly as a puppy, but there are those of us who love tarantulas.
As always, I'm appreciative of those who've continued this discussion. I have no idea where this will eventually lead any of us, but it has easily been my favorite topic of discussion on this forum all year long based solely on the enthusiasm of others and the depths of shared insights. You may now return to your regularly scheduled thread.
#355
Senior Member
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
Just finished watching 2001 Maniacs: Field of Screams. Ugh, one of the biggest pieces of shit I've seen yet.
#356
Challenge Guru & Comic Nerd
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
You make a good point. Although, I think there are some items that will eventually lead to repetition (such as the already-discussed X rating category, where there is a finite number of options from which to choose, or some of the specific actors or directors, some of whom are already dead or retired).
I would argue that there is always something to "get" about any work of art. What that is, of course, and what the aspirations of that art may have been, may not be the same thing. The Texas Chain Saw Massacre may have aspired to be a commentary on the wanton, absurd inhumanity of man and its audiences may have only "gotten" it as a slasher film. Or perhaps the other way around, or something entirely different. But to suggest that one must "have a predilection toward the genre" in order to find it "defensible" sells short the film, as well as the very nature of film criticism and discourse.
#357
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
I have a question about Interview With The Vampire. I watched it last night, but it didn't really seem horror like other than the fact that it dealt with vampires and imdb doesn't even list it as horror under any of its genres. I am hesitant to count it. I just wanted to get some second opinions on whether anyone else has counted it in the past or would count it.
#358
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
Let me stop ya right there. (That doesn't really play nearly as well in a forum post as it does in verbal conversation, does it?) Firstly, I believe any two things can be compared and contrasted, regardless of their seeming differences. In fact, it's those one-on-one discussions where there's little obvious in common that often yield the most rewarding explorations. But that's more of a general philosophy of mine and not specifically relevant here.
The point is not which did I select, or even how I felt about either film, but rather that it is intimidating to come into a first time viewing of any such "classic" of cinema because legions of viewers before you have already affirmed its timelessness and greatness. Several people who have dedicated much more of their time to exploring film than I have--including some very serious Horror fans--have leaped to my defense about being left cold by Massacre. It's personally encouraging, but my point isn't about whether I'm alone in not going gaga for this one film. Rather, my question is how any of us handles going into a film with such an established reputation--especially when we're in the minority.
I find this interesting not because it offers me a new context for placing the film (I was born in the late 70s, but I'm as familiar with the period as one who did not live through it can be and that will have to suffice), but because it touches on some recent criticism about Secretariat. Namely, that the film deliberately ignores the aforementioned social strife and anxiety in favor of a saccharine tale about a plucky woman and her horse. You'll never get an argument from me that being able to place a work of art in its proper historical context is important, and I'll be sure to make more of a concentrated effort to evaluate the film in this light the next time I watch it.
I would argue that there is always something to "get" about any work of art. What that is, of course, and what the aspirations of that art may have been, may not be the same thing. The Texas Chain Saw Massacre may have aspired to be a commentary on the wanton, absurd inhumanity of man and its audiences may have only "gotten" it as a slasher film. Or perhaps the other way around, or something entirely different. But to suggest that one must "have a predilection toward the genre" in order to find it "defensible" sells short the film, as well as the very nature of film criticism and discourse.
Again with a qualifier about the Horror genre: "trashy." This is precisely why I felt Casablanca was a perfect film for the purpose of this discussion: the Romance genre is largely considered just as "inferior" (my word). Mention the term today, and you conjure the term "chick flick" or "rom-com" and images of Kate Hudson and Matthew McConaughey. If Casablanca can transcend that derogatory connotation, then why can't The Texas Chain Saw Massacre likewise rise above such a derisive view of Horror?
As always, I'm appreciative of those who've continued this discussion. I have no idea where this will eventually lead any of us, but it has easily been my favorite topic of discussion on this forum all year long based solely on the enthusiasm of others and the depths of shared insights.
Originally Posted by Ramones
Oh, oh, oh
Sitting here with nothin' to do
Sitting here thinkin' only of you
But you'll never get out of there
She'll never get out of there.
Texas chain saw massacree
They took my baby away from me
But she'll never get out of there
She'll never get out of there
I don't care, wohoho
When I saw her on the corner
She told me told me told me told me
She wouldn't go far
Ooh, now I know I'm so much in love
'Cause she's the only girl that I'm ever thinking of
Sitting here with nothin' to do
Sitting here thinkin' only of you
But you'll never get out of there
She'll never get out of there.
Texas chain saw massacree
They took my baby away from me
But she'll never get out of there
She'll never get out of there
I don't care, wohoho
When I saw her on the corner
She told me told me told me told me
She wouldn't go far
Ooh, now I know I'm so much in love
'Cause she's the only girl that I'm ever thinking of
Last edited by caligulathegod; 10-12-10 at 08:57 AM.
#359
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
I have a question about Interview With The Vampire. I watched it last night, but it didn't really seem horror like other than the fact that it dealt with vampires and imdb doesn't even list it as horror under any of its genres. I am hesitant to count it. I just wanted to get some second opinions on whether anyone else has counted it in the past or would count it.
#361
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
^ Thanks for the input you two. I've learned not to put so much stock in IMDB now. Thats what made me began to question whether or not to add it to my list. I'll go back and add it to my list right now.
#362
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
It's amazing how many horror movies Netflix has on streaming view that didn't get pulled for October. I just now added a bunch of them including among others Zombieland, His Name Was Jason, and American Werewolf in London, along with a bunch of others bringing up my instant queue in horror movies up to 9 right now. I just hope they work, as I didn't have any sound when I tried streaming My Name is Bruce.
#363
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
I watched this on Hulu for the challenge last year. Never heard anything about it previously but it did reaffirm my belief that no DTV horror film needs to be watched unless I absolutely know what it is I'm getting into. Good stories don't necessarily mean good execution.
#364
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
A Bell from Hell was pretty good but watching the DVD version that's cut, kind of sucked. Showing a slaughterhouse is ok but lets cut away right before we show any breasts
#365
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Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
I watched this on Hulu for the challenge last year. Never heard anything about it previously but it did reaffirm my belief that no DTV horror film needs to be watched unless I absolutely know what it is I'm getting into. Good stories don't necessarily mean good execution.
Spoiler:
#366
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
#367
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
Trevor - what is the exclusive Friday the 13th bonus disc documentary? what was that included in? I need to track that down ASAP. I've been watching all the bonus features on the Deluxe Edition DVDs (Lost Tales from Camp Blood and The Crystal Lake Massacres) but if I'm missing out on something, please let me know, as this is my favorite horror franchise, and I need everything...
#368
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
This is part of my argument, though: that the whole world expects you to admire and adore the Casablancas of cinema. In the realm of Horror, The Texas Chain Saw Massacre is such a film. Why is the latter held in such high esteem only in the context of its own genre? Now that I think about it some more, perhaps a better question for me to have asked is: are there any Horror films that do exist on the same tier of all-genre films as Casablanca? Jaws, Psycho and The Exorcist all come to mind offhand. Any others?
Even a film like Casablanca, if you have no experience with or don't particularly care for 40s films, is probably not going to impress you.
But especially when the criticisms seem to be about its very nature (its simplicity in plot and characterizations) and what was so influential that what made it special has been so plagiarized that it loses its impact if you compare it to its progeny.
Going back to the Ramones...
Spoiler:
And one can see what their influence really was. Without Chainsaw, there would not have been a Halloween or Friday the 13th, or even SAW.
Again, a bit unfair. Horror IS a trashy genre. [snip] Trash does not mean bad. Trash is an aesthetic.
But then, I was emotionally affected by Up, no matter how many people like my mother-in-law want to tell me, "It's just a cartoon." I don't believe that the nature of a film's medium or aesthetic should be held against it; either it succeeds in evoking a reaction or it does not and that's the starting point for criticism.
But my point is, if you aren't a big Horror fan (as you admitted you weren't), then you might not appreciate some aspects of the genre as those who are fans (different tastes not withstanding- TCM is generally well regarded as a genre film so dissenters are in the minority)
As for the high esteem in which Massacre is held within the genre, I'm pretty sure I've already acknowledged that as a key reason I felt it appropriate to contrast with Casablanca in the first place.
Some of the hottest girls are the trashiest. You may not marry one, but they are awfully fun.
#369
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
Trevor - what is the exclusive Friday the 13th bonus disc documentary? what was that included in? I need to track that down ASAP. I've been watching all the bonus features on the Deluxe Edition DVDs (Lost Tales from Camp Blood and The Crystal Lake Massacres) but if I'm missing out on something, please let me know, as this is my favorite horror franchise, and I need everything...
Of course, my apoligies to Trevor if this is no where near what he's referring to.
#370
Challenge Guru & Comic Nerd
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
Trevor - what is the exclusive Friday the 13th bonus disc documentary? what was that included in? I need to track that down ASAP. I've been watching all the bonus features on the Deluxe Edition DVDs (Lost Tales from Camp Blood and The Crystal Lake Massacres) but if I'm missing out on something, please let me know, as this is my favorite horror franchise, and I need everything...
It had 5 discs. Two films on each of the first four discs, and extras on disc five. Well, at Best Buy only, selected copies had a bonus 6th disc with a documentary called Jason Forever. It took me forever to track one down. It's one of the rarer store exclusive discs.
Edit to add: Doh! Dick answered while I was writing/researching this post.
#371
DVD Talk Special Edition
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
Thanks for the info guys, looks like tracking a hard copy down is going to be impossible, but I've found it on youtube.
#372
DVD Talk Legend
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
2 films away from beating my entire total from last year's Challenge
#373
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Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
But when one places them in the context of when they appeared on the scene and what music was like (predominately highly produced prog rock like Yes, Pink Floyd, Emerson Lake & Palmer, etc.) their simplicity and straightforwardness is easier to appreciate, even if you prefer what they were rebelling against. And one can see what their influence really was. Without Chainsaw, there would not have been a Halloween or Friday the 13th, or even SAW.
#374
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Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
Just watched Night of the Lepus last night. What were they thinking?!?!
#375
DVD Talk Limited Edition
Re: 100 Movies. 31 Days. The 6th Annual "October Horror Movie Challenge" (Oct 1-31) P
Just started my 39th film of the month- The Haunting In Connecticut. I like the pace I'm on but I can't wait to get my DVD shelf up and arranged later this week. These on demand movies have been reallly hit or miss and there is a lot of I'm looking forward to watching out of my collection for the first time.