Star Wars
#1201
DVD Talk Legend
re: Star Wars
Seeing that Episode I poster makes me sad. I remember seeing it all those years ago, and even though I was in my early 20's, I was excited like a kid for the promise it held.
Then the movie came out.
Then the movie came out.
![Sad Banana](/images/smilies/sad.gif)
#1202
DVD Talk Limited Edition
re: Star Wars
![Old Rolleyes](/images/smilies/rolleyesold.gif)
Not until the release of ESB did Lucas start changing the story with Anakin and Darth Vader being the same person. Then changing the story in ROTJ with Luke and Leia being siblings. And then changing the story again in TPM where QuiGon finds Anakin.....
Next your going to tell me that Lucas had Luke and Leia kiss in ESB just to throw off the audience for the sibling reveal in ROTJ
![LOL](/images/smilies/lol.gif)
#1203
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
re: Star Wars
Next your going to tell me that Lucas had Luke and Leia kiss in ESB just to throw off the audience for the sibling reveal in ROTJ
![LOL](/images/smilies/lol.gif)
Look, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I'm of the mind that the Vader-is-the-Core issue is one of those two times for Lucas, and it's going to take a lot more than "But the other characters are so much cooler/more prominent" and "You're just a Kool-Aid-drinking Lucas apologist" to convince me otherwise.
#1204
DVD Talk Hero
re: Star Wars
Vader came across as a nothing more than a (badass) henchman in Episode IV. It was clear he was Tarkin's bitch. How he got promoted after his failure to take out a little kid who destroyed the Emperor's trillion credit doomsday weapon is nothing short of a miracle.
#1205
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
re: Star Wars
It always struck me that Vader was something of a has-been on the backside of his career who was largely just mailing it in by the time of Star Wars, but that the return of Obi-Wan and the eruption of the rebellion sort of jolted him back into action.
#1206
DVD Talk Legend
re: Star Wars
You're right, I looked at DVDAf and saw the copyright date of 2002, but didn't realize the DVD release date was 2005.
Actually, I've never seen that matte painting, so I might be wrong. I'm pretty sure that scene was in the novelization of Jedi, which I read a million times as a kid and I must have just put Luke in Ben's hut in my mind's eye for all those years. It does make more sense that he would raid Ben's place for supplies but then find a cave to hide in while he constructs the saber.
He survived, Tarkin didn't. And of course Vader would have given his side of the story to the Emperor when he got back to him, painting Tarkin as incompetent. Not that surprising to me.
Are you 100% sure on that. I've seen the matte painting that would have accompanied this scene. It shows the Falcon, Lukes X-wing and a hold out area where the live action plate would have been. Doesn't look like it would have Ben's house in there. Always seemed more like a cave.
Originally Posted by RocShemp
Vader came across as a nothing more than a (badass) henchman in Episode IV. It was clear he was Tarkin's bitch. How he got promoted after his failure to take out a little kid who destroyed the Emperor's trillion credit doomsday weapon is nothing short of a miracle.
#1208
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
re: Star Wars
Just because the film is titled "Dr. No" doesn't mean it is actually about that character. The story is about James Bond who investigates a conspiracy, finds the source and their ultimate objective and triumphs over them.
He's the protagonist of the story- just like Luke is in Star Wars.
Most of the significant plot resolutions (carried over from the previous films) in RotJ are retroactive continuity- just like so much of the Prequels would be after that. If someone enjoys that, fine. But don't confuse Lucas' after-the-fact spin with incontrovertible fact about these stories original intent and construction.
He's the protagonist of the story- just like Luke is in Star Wars.
Most of the significant plot resolutions (carried over from the previous films) in RotJ are retroactive continuity- just like so much of the Prequels would be after that. If someone enjoys that, fine. But don't confuse Lucas' after-the-fact spin with incontrovertible fact about these stories original intent and construction.
#1209
DVD Talk Legend
re: Star Wars
My Star Wars collection to date:
Top row: Star Wars Droids VHS, Faces LD, OT Best Buy tin w/ OOT, VCD set
Second row: Faces LD DVD rips w/ supplement disc, SE LD DVD rips
Third row: Prequel trilogy, Wal-Mart Story of Star Wars, Original trilogy 4 disc box set
Bottom row: Star Wars Musical Journey, R2D2 Beneath the Dome
I also had Star Wars on VHS, and the faces VHS set in Pan and Scan.
I guess after seeing the underground releases and fan edits and what these fans have put together in special features, I'm kind of blah about the release. That combined with the many years of debates about the OOT and the SE and the numerous releases I've kind of been worn down and not super excited about the release.
Spoiler:
Top row: Star Wars Droids VHS, Faces LD, OT Best Buy tin w/ OOT, VCD set
Second row: Faces LD DVD rips w/ supplement disc, SE LD DVD rips
Third row: Prequel trilogy, Wal-Mart Story of Star Wars, Original trilogy 4 disc box set
Bottom row: Star Wars Musical Journey, R2D2 Beneath the Dome
I also had Star Wars on VHS, and the faces VHS set in Pan and Scan.
I guess after seeing the underground releases and fan edits and what these fans have put together in special features, I'm kind of blah about the release. That combined with the many years of debates about the OOT and the SE and the numerous releases I've kind of been worn down and not super excited about the release.
#1211
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re: Star Wars
[cough]Dr. No[/cough]
You're welcome to dig through the forum archive to find where, time and again, I've decried the notion of George Lucas as a visionary on the basis that several key things were clearly improvised as he went. Darth Vader being the central figure of the overall story, though, I don't believe is one of those elements. The remarks from Obi-Wan are clearly meant to build up Vader in Luke's--and our--mind.
Look, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I'm of the mind that the Vader-is-the-Core issue is one of those two times for Lucas, and it's going to take a lot more than "But the other characters are so much cooler/more prominent" and "You're just a Kool-Aid-drinking Lucas apologist" to convince me otherwise.
You're welcome to dig through the forum archive to find where, time and again, I've decried the notion of George Lucas as a visionary on the basis that several key things were clearly improvised as he went. Darth Vader being the central figure of the overall story, though, I don't believe is one of those elements. The remarks from Obi-Wan are clearly meant to build up Vader in Luke's--and our--mind.
Look, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I'm of the mind that the Vader-is-the-Core issue is one of those two times for Lucas, and it's going to take a lot more than "But the other characters are so much cooler/more prominent" and "You're just a Kool-Aid-drinking Lucas apologist" to convince me otherwise.
Every Star Wars fan knows that Lucas originally planned for Star Wars to be a 9-12 film saga, not six. There are quotes from him in old interviews and even in his old Bantha Tracks newsletter from years ago. Yet today, he falsely claims that he always intended it to be six. Also the Luke/Leia sister/brother angle was thought up after ESB.
Lucas' own comments about Vader in that interview disprove the notion that Star Wars was always about Vader/Anakin. That may be the revisionism that came later but it was not intended to be that way.
Do you know what documentary that interview is from?
"From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga". The fourth of the four documentaries that Lucas mysteriously left off the new set while including the other three. I think it's plainly obvious why he doesn't want that doc on the set. Between the Vader, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Luke/Leia excerpts, it clearly shows that Star Wars wasn't this pre-planned, grand "vision" that George Lucas tries to make everyone believe today. He thought up a lot of it as he went along and has made further revisions in the last 15 years, all the while telling us that this was his original intent all along.
Many online yesterday, including me, were wondering why and bemoaning the fact that "From Star Wars to Jedi" was left off yet the other three made it. It's quite clear.
Take a look at it on You Tube. Someone has the full 65-minute version up.
#1212
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
re: Star Wars
Do you know what documentary that interview is from?
"From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga". ...
Many online yesterday, including me, were wondering why and bemoaning the fact that "From Star Wars to Jedi" was left off yet the other three made it.
"From Star Wars to Jedi: The Making of a Saga". ...
Many online yesterday, including me, were wondering why and bemoaning the fact that "From Star Wars to Jedi" was left off yet the other three made it.
#1214
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re: Star Wars
Oh, I know the continuity of when and how this was all developed. But when watching the films themselves there aren't red flags being waved declaring, "We have no idea where this is headed!" A viewer can very easily glean from nothing more than watching the films that Vader is, indeed, central to the original trilogy even if Lucas himself hadn't planned it that way.
Um, yeah. I've quite familiar with it. In fact, you'll find several remarks in this very thread from the last 48 hours by me referencing that documentary and singing its praises.
Um, yeah. I've quite familiar with it. In fact, you'll find several remarks in this very thread from the last 48 hours by me referencing that documentary and singing its praises.
I've read your posts on "From Star Wars to Jedi" and I know we're in agreement in our wish to have seen it included in the set. I do feel that the exclusion of that doc was due to the fact that it refutes the revisionism we've heard for the last 10+ years and sets Lucas' talk of the whole saga being a pre-planned example of his grand vision and intent on its ear.
Most hardcore Star Wars fans know that the OT had the four original making-of docs and we get the first three on this set but not the fourth. Mysterious and inexplicable until someone takes the time to watch it. The fourth is 65 minutes long and almost 40 minutes is exclusive material and interviews not present in the other three, so it can't be excluded on the basis of it being a rehash, as anyone viewing all four will clearly see it isn't a rehash. Fans have wanted an official DVD release of the four for years. They're quite popular in some of the "aftermarket" sets. We get 175 minutes of spoofs and fan material, the History channel doc and an outdated featurette on the 1997 CGI, yet this was left off. They can't use the lack of space excuse when you consider what was left on in its place.
I'm not a crazy conspiracy theorist. On the other hand, when you view that doc and see what made it onto the set in its place and look at the fact that the other three made it, I think the reason for its exclusion is obvious.
#1215
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re: Star Wars
Whoa whoa whoa wait a minute here....
Who the hell is supposedly cooler than Darth Vader? If anyone says Han Solo, and I know they will, just because someone has a casual, almost lazy attitude about things doesn't make him nearly as badass. One look at Vader, especially before we really knew what happened to him in the prequels and he was automatically a mystery man and a dangerous threat. The man walks around with lights on his chest and belt and a skull-like mask, those alone piquing anyone's interest as to who the hell this guy is, not to mention how fantastic his overall look is.
Then there's the whole scary voice and strangling people with his mind thing...
I'm biased though, since Vader is the one reason I'm a fan of Star Wars in the first place.
Who the hell is supposedly cooler than Darth Vader? If anyone says Han Solo, and I know they will, just because someone has a casual, almost lazy attitude about things doesn't make him nearly as badass. One look at Vader, especially before we really knew what happened to him in the prequels and he was automatically a mystery man and a dangerous threat. The man walks around with lights on his chest and belt and a skull-like mask, those alone piquing anyone's interest as to who the hell this guy is, not to mention how fantastic his overall look is.
Then there's the whole scary voice and strangling people with his mind thing...
I'm biased though, since Vader is the one reason I'm a fan of Star Wars in the first place.
![Smilie](/images/smilies/smile.gif)
#1217
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re: Star Wars
The last 40 minutes of "From Star Wars to Jedi" doesn't deal with the creatures at all, instead dealing with other aspects of ROTJ, the speeder bike chase, and the aforementioned Lucas interviews that were not in "Classic Creatures" or the other two. The last 40 minutes of it, or 60% of it, was not redundant or repetitive in any way.
#1218
DVD Talk Hero
re: Star Wars
Every Star Wars fan knows that Lucas originally planned for Star Wars to be a 9-12 film saga, not six. There are quotes from him in old interviews and even in his old Bantha Tracks newsletter from years ago. Yet today, he falsely claims that he always intended it to be six. Also the Luke/Leia sister/brother angle was thought up after ESB.
Lucas' own comments about Vader in that interview disprove the notion that Star Wars was always about Vader/Anakin. That may be the revisionism that came later but it was not intended to be that way.
Lucas' own comments about Vader in that interview disprove the notion that Star Wars was always about Vader/Anakin. That may be the revisionism that came later but it was not intended to be that way.
One need only to read the original drafts of "Star Wars" from the early 1970s. The first draft is almost completely unrecognizable, save for a few names and the "I'll be careful/You'll be dead" exchange, from the film that was actually made. The only constant is that it is a multi-generational science fiction epic.
Even in the prequels, you can see that Lucas was fishing around and didn't have the plot solidly locked up and was just winging a lot of things from movie to movie. In AOTC, Syfo-Dyas seemed to be an important plot point that would pay off in the third film, but that was thread was dropped entirely. And, in ROTS, the concept of "force ghosts" was dealt with in a couple of clumsy lines of dialog about Qui-Gon Jinn. ROTS, with Padme dying seconds after Leia was born, contradicts what Leia said about her mother.
#1219
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
#1220
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re: Star Wars
The Star Wars saga has always been fluid and there has never been any kind of grand plan in effect.
One need only to read the original drafts of "Star Wars" from the early 1970s. The first draft is almost completely unrecognizable, save for a few names and the "I'll be careful/You'll be dead" exchange, from the film that was actually made. The only constant is that it is a multi-generational science fiction epic.
Even in the prequels, you can see that Lucas was fishing around and didn't have the plot solidly locked up and was just winging a lot of things from movie to movie. In AOTC, Syfo-Dyas seemed to be an important plot point that would pay off in the third film, but that was thread was dropped entirely. And, in ROTS, the concept of "force ghosts" was dealt with in a couple of clumsy lines of dialog about Qui-Gon Jinn. ROTS, with Padme dying seconds after Leia was born, contradicts what Leia said about her mother.
One need only to read the original drafts of "Star Wars" from the early 1970s. The first draft is almost completely unrecognizable, save for a few names and the "I'll be careful/You'll be dead" exchange, from the film that was actually made. The only constant is that it is a multi-generational science fiction epic.
Even in the prequels, you can see that Lucas was fishing around and didn't have the plot solidly locked up and was just winging a lot of things from movie to movie. In AOTC, Syfo-Dyas seemed to be an important plot point that would pay off in the third film, but that was thread was dropped entirely. And, in ROTS, the concept of "force ghosts" was dealt with in a couple of clumsy lines of dialog about Qui-Gon Jinn. ROTS, with Padme dying seconds after Leia was born, contradicts what Leia said about her mother.
I agree with your assessment of the prequels as well.
Last edited by Breather; 05-07-11 at 03:54 AM.
#1221
DVD Talk Limited Edition
re: Star Wars
I would be more fascinated if Lucas 'came clean' and they did a documentary on how he changed the saga through the years. I think if Lucas was honest about that, many fans wouldn't care because this happens all the time in movie trilogies (except Lord of the Rings because they were already books.) Zemecki's admits on Back to the Future DVD's that the sequels weren't planned, and the ending where Doc talks about going in the future with Marty and his girlfriend was more for fun just to end the movie. He even says, "I had no grand plan...." Can you see George Lucas Ego letting him say that?
I would love to know when Lucas had the ephipany of merging Vader and Luke's Father as he was writing ESB. Did he just wake up in the middle of the night, "Hey Marcia, I got this great idea for a sequel to Star Wars!" The new documentaries on SW are unwatchable because it is so disingenious because it is all revisionism by Lucas, and all it does is brain-wash the younger generation who has never seen the movies and the gushers who will believe anything he says.
I would love to know when Lucas had the ephipany of merging Vader and Luke's Father as he was writing ESB. Did he just wake up in the middle of the night, "Hey Marcia, I got this great idea for a sequel to Star Wars!" The new documentaries on SW are unwatchable because it is so disingenious because it is all revisionism by Lucas, and all it does is brain-wash the younger generation who has never seen the movies and the gushers who will believe anything he says.
#1222
DVD Talk Godfather
re: Star Wars
I would love to know when Lucas had the ephipany of merging Vader and Luke's Father as he was writing ESB. Did he just wake up in the middle of the night, "Hey Marcia, I got this great idea for a sequel to Star Wars!" The new documentaries on SW are unwatchable because it is so disingenious because it is all revisionism by Lucas, and all it does is brain-wash the younger generation who has never seen the movies and the gushers who will believe anything he says.
#1223
DVD Talk Legend
re: Star Wars
I would be more fascinated if Lucas 'came clean' and they did a documentary on how he changed the saga through the years. I think if Lucas was honest about that, many fans wouldn't care because this happens all the time in movie trilogies (except Lord of the Rings because they were already books.) Zemecki's admits on Back to the Future DVD's that the sequels weren't planned, and the ending where Doc talks about going in the future with Marty and his girlfriend was more for fun just to end the movie. He even says, "I had no grand plan...." Can you see George Lucas Ego letting him say that?
I would love to know when Lucas had the ephipany of merging Vader and Luke's Father as he was writing ESB. Did he just wake up in the middle of the night, "Hey Marcia, I got this great idea for a sequel to Star Wars!" The new documentaries on SW are unwatchable because it is so disingenious because it is all revisionism by Lucas, and all it does is brain-wash the younger generation who has never seen the movies and the gushers who will believe anything he says.
I would love to know when Lucas had the ephipany of merging Vader and Luke's Father as he was writing ESB. Did he just wake up in the middle of the night, "Hey Marcia, I got this great idea for a sequel to Star Wars!" The new documentaries on SW are unwatchable because it is so disingenious because it is all revisionism by Lucas, and all it does is brain-wash the younger generation who has never seen the movies and the gushers who will believe anything he says.
#1224
DVD Talk Special Edition
re: Star Wars
It could have been a badass gothic sci-fi western - all set up perfectly by Empire, but instead we get Ewoks and family.
#1225
DVD Talk Legend
Thread Starter
re: Star Wars
In fairness though, I get the sense that everyone including Lucas was ready to move on to other things after the third one... even getting Ford to come back for Jedi took some work. So he may have had no choice but to combine the elements of three more films into that last one. People change, move on... unlike other jobs that people have no problem working at for 20-30yrs, creative folks (who are a in a position to be able to get more work) don't like spending half their careers on one kind of project.
Last edited by Artman; 05-07-11 at 12:59 PM.