Josh-da-man

There is a term for the equivalent male characters that's called "Gary Stu," but it sounds kind of weird.

The term "Mary Sue" has a long and complex history.

It was originally coined to describe author surrogate characters in Star Trek fan fiction in the 1970s. People, usually women, would write Star Trek fan fiction centering on a character, usually a plucky young ensign who was brilliant, competent, and well-loved by the crew (who would, on occasion, even get shagged by Captain Kirk). These characters became known as "Mary Sues."

Over time, the term came to be applied to any author surrogate character, whether or not it was fan-fic. Which would, ironically, include lots of male characters who were thinly veiled author avatars of an idealized version of the author -- handsome, athletic, refined tastes, independently wealthy, and irresistable to women. Examples would include James Bond, Jack Ryan, Robert Langdon, and Wesley Crusher.

As time went on, the term came to be applied to almost any character that was overly capable, knowledgeable, or fabuolus who tend to overwhelm the story. These characters are more of an example of lazy writing or Examples of this type of Mary Sue would include River Song (though probably not an author surrogate of Steven Moffat) and, to a certain extent, Rey, who seems to have been given full Jedi powers without any kind of training.

Personally, I don't like referring to non-author-surrogate characters as "Mary Sues," but the definition seems to have evolved in that direction. I would rather think of characters like River Song and Rey as "creator's pets."

Brack

Jay G.

The name comes from a prominent early parody of the archetype, Lieutenant Mary Sue from Paula Smith's 1973 parody story "A Trekkie's Tale."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

I think the big thing from that Wikipedia page that people may attribute to Rey is " upstaging the established protagonist". I think a good number of people wanted this to be the continued adventures of Luke, Han, and Leia, and since Rey is the new main character, and as main character she's upstaging the previous main characters of the older movies, they feel this counts as a Mary Sue. But if you look at the movies in episode order, Luke ends up "upstaging" Obi-Wan when we transition from Prequels to OT. This is just what happens when your story jumps a generation and focuses on the new one.

Mike86

Josh-da-man

Rey is the protagonist in TFA; though she does some Mary Sue-ish qualities (fangirling over Han Solo, going from a simple scavenger to a Jedi Master in the course of afternoon). It gets kind of weird in TLJ where it feels like she becomes a background character. But TLJ has a kind of weird structure where it feels like four B-stories without an A-story. Looking at the film as its own entity, and I can't really say who the "main" character is supposed to be. I know, from TFA, that Rey is, ostensibly, the protagonist, but she doesn't really have much to do in TLJ.

I don't really think Rey fits the traditional definition of "Mary Sue," but the definition has become quite broad in recent years.

coli

Jay G.

I always thought she learned some "tricks" from Kylo when his mind-reading backfires in TFA. It's immediately after that she uses the mind control trick.

Brack

kefrank

Not to mention, there's precedent. Look at how quickly Luke is able to use the Force in Star Wars after basically one quick conversation with Obi Wan on the Millennium Falcon that barely constitutes a "lesson." If there's one thing that the movies do broadly explain about the Force, it's that the Force is stronger with some people than others, which allows for both Luke and Rey to intuitively pick up on what they can do.

brayzie

I was referring to this comment:
Can't both comments, the one made by Tom Banjo, and Rey being called a "Mary Sue" be sexist? And I brought up male actors because it's very uncommon for them to be referred to like sex objects in this way.

Brack

Ah, okay. Well, he seemed to be offering a hypothetical sexist scenario to prove a point, which he’s probably right about. I don’t really think he’s suggesting that scenario would or should happen.

Jay G.

It could be like a psychic link. Like, it doesn't actually break off when Kylo stops the interrogation. Rey is slowly leaching info out of Kylo for the rest of the movie. And then Snoke senses it and decides to strengthen the link in TLJ.

brayzie

@defending the way the character of Rey is written by bringing up Daisy Ridley's bust size and a hypothetical about sex with her.

Josh-da-man

Not really.

If you look at the original Star Wars and Luke's arc, he didn't do all that much with the Force in the first movie. OWK kind of nudged him into the "feel it move through you" and he was able to successfully bomb the Death Star. Then, four years later, Luke can barely use telekinesis to pull his lightsabre into has hand in the Wampa cave. And even after a period of intense training with Yoda, he can still only levitate a few small stones. And later, in the same movie, Darth Vader completely fucks him up.

Now look at Rey. WIthin TFA, which probably spans about the same amount of time as ANH, Rey is able to do the "Jedi Mind Trick," use telekinesis, and defeats Kylo Ren depsite not even having held a lightsabre in her hand until a couple of hours ago. And, four days (not four years) later in TLJ, she's fighting off a team of, what we can assume are, highly skilled fighters and clearing an avalanche with telekinesis. That's like Yoda kind of shit. And, unlike ESB, Luke didn't even train her that much. It's like the first time a kid picks up a basketball and becomes Michael-fucking-Jordan.

There's just no thought put into the Sequel Trilogy. It just reeks of either storytelling by committee, or Abrams and Johnson are lazy-assed writers.

Josh-da-man

Just another straw-man argument from those who can't take criticism of the ST.

"You don't like the Sequel Trilogy because those weren't the boobs you wanted," I guess.

brayzie

So TLJ is just like the old movies! Poor Luke. No character growth over the course of five films until right before he dies.

While I agree that many people apparently wanted the sequels to focus more on the original cast I doubt that criticism of her fast-tracked Force abilities is because they feel she's viewed as upstaging others. Luke's not even in TFA, and Leia is hardly in it. And I don't remember people criticizing Han's character like they did Luke's.

Except Anakin, young Obi-Wan and Padme are not endearing characters like Luke, Han, and Leia. And Luke didn't really upstage Obi-Wan. In young Obi-Wan's first appearance he's already adept with using the lightsaber, and goes one-on-one with Darth Maul and kills him.
Luke in ANH doesn't even get a chance to wield a lightsaber, let alone against the man who killed his father, Darth Vader.


I think it has more to do with Disney wanting a lightsaber fight at the end of the film and with a viewing public that can't wait for shit, they're not going to risk the main character not having a lightsaber duel.

The first story for the first film was actually 3+ films worth of story condensed into one because Lucas didn't think he was going to get the chance to do sequels. That's why in hindsight it feels rushed at times. Luke plays with a floating golf ball that shoots lasers while blinded for like one minute, and suddenly he's trained enough to use the Force to blow up the Death Star.

That's what I appreciate about ESB. The film is stressing how training takes time, and Luke's like, nah, I learned enough, and gets beat and almost killed, and even loses his hand. The End.

No, they're thoughtful writers. I for one wouldn't want to see Daisy Ridley's character having shit thrown at her head, her eyes blackened, and one of her limbs cut off by a man, like what happened to Luke in Empire Strikes Back. That would come across like some on-screen misogyny.

Josh-da-man

You must have hated Buffy the Vampire Slayer, then.

She got knocked around, beaten, bruised, and, in one case, nearly raped by male vampires. Didn't prevent her from becoming a feminist icon.

If we're going to have women being action heroes, they're going to have to take a few lumps every now and then, just like the boys do. When you're fighting for your life and the lives of others, you earn every bruise and scar. To say that women who fight mass killers and monsters shouldn't get a black eye or broken bone every now and then is basically admitting they don't have any right to take up these traditionally male roles. You fight, you're going to get a few bruises at least. You do it as a career, and you're going to get a few scars along the way.

The only real misogyny I could see from the ST is if, by the end, Rey and Ben become romantic partners... "Reylo." They would basically have her fall in love with the creepy asshole who kidnapped her, tortured her, gaslit her, negged her, and killed her friends. That's an absolutely gross message to send.

dex14

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brayzie

I missed out on the Buffy phenomenon.

Different time and different property. If Rey got nearly raped by Kylo, the Red Guard, or the Jed Killers, can you imagine how much backlash Disney would get for that?

I agree, but for the first new Star Wars film at Disney, and one to feature the first female Jedi as a the lead, for a big kids franchise with little girls looking up to the character, that shit wouldn't have looked right. Especially with #MeToo, sexual assault, and violence towards women being such an important topic these days.

Tom Banjo

Tom Banjo

Shannon Nutt

I still think the "red glow" in C-3PO's eyes is just a reflection from something else. We'll see.

raven56706

i can foresee C3po riding the Falcon into something to save the rebellion.

clappj

I'm guessing from 3PO's comment about "taking one last look at his friends," that the red eyes has something to do with his memory being wiped/him being rebooted for some purpose. Perhaps like R2, he has some information stored in him, but that can only be retrieved after a "hard reboot."

kefrank

Luke is able to use a lightsaber (which he's never touched before) to block laser blasts from a moving object a few feet away while he's blindfolded after one conversation with Obi Wan. And then he is able to fire a pinpoint shot into a small porthole without using a targeting sight while flying at high speeds through a trench. But then he struggles to do things in ESB that seem relatively simple in comparison. If anything the original trilogy is inconsistent almost to the point of silliness about how use of the Force is learned and applied.

None of what you posted here contradicts what I said, and in fact reiterates my point, so I guess I'll just say it again: If there's one thing that the movies do broadly explain about the Force, it's that the Force is stronger with some people than others, which allows for both Luke and Rey to intuitively pick up on what they can do.