kefrank

No, that's not what I said. I said Luke's demeanor in TLJ is not inconsistent with his character in the original trilogy (granted, I said it with more pith since I was responding to a pithy comment). But in fact, if you look back in the TLJ thread, you'll see where I have argued how Luke's character arc (which is an arc) from the OT through TLJ flows consistently and brings a really interesting dimension and beautiful "end" to the character.

Mike86

Draven

Luke also flew a starship at high speeds through a pitched battle that took out far more experienced pilots and made the shot that won the war. So let's not act like what Rey was able to do is any different. Luke got the same super powers when he needed them.

Besides, is Luke the only metric on how Force users progress?

This is what is so frustrating about these conversations - people disparage the current trilogy with a comment like "they are dropping bombs in space" without mentioning that ships are dogfighting in space throughout the OT (because those battles were straight-up based on WWII dogfighting films). Go ahead and be critical of the new movies, but don't ignore when the OT did the exact same thing.

Mike86

Draven

So you give Luke a pass that he's a good pilot (without ANY evidence prior to him winning the war by himself), yet when Rey is shown to be a capable fighter with her staff, she learns how to use a lightsaber too quickly? Luke is a spoiled farmboy - Rey has been fighting her entire life. And Kylo had taken a hit from Chewie's bowcaster and he still almost beat Rey with a lightsaber.

As for the Falcon, Rey jumps into the pilot seat and starts flipping the right switches (and make repairs in flight), which demonstrates she has some familiarity with flying a ship like the Falcon. Apparently this is backed up in the novelization too. I mean, if you take Luke's word for it that he's a good pilot, doesn't Rey get the same consideration that she's obviously able to fly the ship?

Mike86

Draven

There is no reason to doubt that Rey can fly the Falcon because she can FLY THE FALCON. When James Bond jumps into a helicopter and stars flipping the right switches, do you go "wait a minute, where was the line of dialogue that said he could do that?" Rey lives in a time where there are spaceships, she's a scavenger and has at least some mechanical ability, so it's not a stretch at all to believe she knows how to fly a spaceship. It's like when an adult in a movie gets into a car and knows how to drive it, even if there wasn't a line of dialogue that said he would. You just assume an adult knows how to drive.

As for Luke's abilities, they are not consistent at all. He uses the Force and a lightsaber to block blasts from a drone with only minutes of practice. He routinely does things with the Force that we never see him learn how to do (Force jumping, telepathy). But he gets a pass, for some reason.

And again, there is zero indication that Luke's progression with the Force is the standard progression. According to the PT and what Yoda says, he and Rey are far too old to learn how to use the Force. So Luke is already atypical when it comes to being a student of the Force. Yet he's the standard you're holding Rey too? Maybe Rey is the standard and Luke was slow to learn? You literally have no way of knowing what the standard is.

Brack

As opposed to all the other characters who use the Force...scientifically?

Mike86

story

George Lucas mispronouncing "saga" three times in that video a few posts back had me absolutely dying. So funny! Reminds me of a thread I started years ago about people misremembering or mispronouncing things related to the movies they made.

dex14

"George Lucas"

story

Is it though, dex? Is it?!

Draven

When you get down to it, all characters have the abilities they have because of how they are written. There is no reason that a teenage farmer should have the ability to single-handedly take down a war machine that is literally the size of a planet. He was written that way. You accepted that. I'm just saying I accept the exact same things about Rey - she's a powerful Force user (Luke confirms she's as powerful as Kylo) who already knows how to fight and fly spaceships. It's no different from farmboy Luke blowing up the Death Star.

Mike86

TGM

There's no way they build a Disney theme world around a destroyed ship.

Also, I seriously doubt they kill off anymore legacy characters (except Leia obviously) due to the criticism of the sequel trilogy thus far.

they also did the "ram the ship into something to save us" thing in the Last Jedi (looked cool by the way).

kefrank

Who called Luke perfect? You responded to me, I believe, and my point was that Luke learning specific Force abilities was pretty arbitrary in the OT. Some impossible things he was able to do almost immediately and other seemingly more mundane uses of the Force appeared to be slightly more difficult for him to pick up. Rey seems to be able to pick up Force abilities faster - either because of something she gleaned from Kylo being in her head or because she knows what to try from all the legends of the Luke Skywalker she heard growing up and is simply more gifted. Either way, the precedent that pretty incredible Force abilities can be picked up with almost no real training was established with Luke in the very first film.

melasnus

Mike86

mcnabb

It's kind of pointless to compare Episodes II through XIII to the Original Star Wars, because that movie was essentially made as a standalone movie. Everything in the movie is part of that story and not really meant to be told in the bigger context that eventually played out with the franchise. Yes, Lucas kept Vader alive and had backstory notes when writing the movie (just in case there would be a sequel), but the context of the 1977 movie is all in there and only meant to be seen as is. That is why comparing Rey's Force abilities or Anakin's abilities to 1977 Luke is comparing apples to oranges.

The Original Star Wars was telling a story that was designed to have an ending, so Luke's force powers were part of that story being told. Lucas only had 2 hours so he couldn't flesh out a part like Luke training with Obiwan on the Millenium Falcon as he showed just enough for the fans to understand what the Force was. Even at the end when Luke is using the Force to blow up the Death Star, it is not meant to be looked at like we do now comparing the Jedi Order and Anakin's training since he was a little boy. It was an emotional/dramatic moment that Obiwan's dialogue inspired Luke and THAT was the payoff to the fans after blowing up the Death Star.

That is why I hate that Star Wars 77 is now 'part 4' of the Saga, because the movie is taken way out of context these days by any fan who didn't experience it originally. Starting with ESB, every Star Wars movies was written with a bigger context in mind knowing it was part of a Trilogy. So when you write Rey in TFA acquiring these Force Abilities without training, you know you are getting 2 more movies that will flesh it out (or it should flesh out).

kefrank

I didn't equate them. I said Star Wars set a precedent from the very beginning that Force abilities can arbitrarily be picked up with barely any training to speak of, as evidenced with Luke in the first movie. Citing precedent for arbitrary Force learning isn't the same thing as equating the characters and how their two arcs play out. I've said what I have to say and I feel like you're just interpreting it some other way and talking past my main points, so I don't know that this can be much more productive.

Ok. Well if someone stopped a bullet shot from a moving gun a few feet away by swinging a steel pole barely wider than the bullet itself while blindfolded, would you find that incredible? That's basically what Luke does within the first few minutes of trying to use the Force. I wouldn't exactly call that minimal. I would call Obi Wan's "guidance" minimal relative to what Luke is able to do though. We will just have to agree to disagree here.

Josh-da-man

No. Because James Bond is an elite secret agent with decades of experience, a special forces military background, and the extensive skill set that goes along with his job.

tanman

I agree. Rewatch it. He was really only whiny in ANH. He was a willing but not committed student in ESB and in RotJ he's completed his training and not very whiny at all.

brayzie

I was being facetious. I don't have a problem with Rian Johnson breaking some eggs to make an omelette for TLJ. I thought it was a solid film, and as a whole, probably the third best SW film so far.
But I do find the defenses of Luke's character in TLJ to be odd.
"He was always a whiny little bitch." He was whiny in the first one, impulsive in the second, and wiser in the next. It was a serious regression on the character's part. You can forgive and redeem the Hitler of the galaxy who murdered millions, but throw in the towel when his grandson helps kill your Jedi trainees? It works for the purpose of TLJ and moving forward, but it seems uncharacteristic of the character especially since there's such a huge gap in the time we last saw him from ROTJ to TLJ.

Probably because audiences are more aware of how space works these days and adding more inaccuracies to the laws of physics makes them more noticeable. I thought the producers' explanation for continuing the WWII-inspirations made sense. But I can also understand the criticisms.

The film itself is making the case that she learns how to use a lightsaber too quickly. She's losing against a weakened Kylo, but then closes her eyes, and it's implied that The Force gives her the power or ability to defeat Kylo. If she's a capable to fight with a sword already, AND Kylo is weakened, why include that scene of her downloading Force skills or whatever it is?

In ANH Luke says he's a good pilot and wants to join the Empire's flight academy. The dialogue and script is showing us, prior to his Rebel pilot career, that he has promising potential as a pilot. Doesn't Obi-wan also mention he's heard how good a pilot he is?
Rey and Finn on the other hand just jump into the Falcon, out maneuver all the First Order's pilots AND gun them all down. They both act surprised at how they're able to do this. As I was watching I just assumed that The Force was giving them the ability to do this and that her AND Finn were going to be revealed to be Force-sensitive future Jedis. But it did look like lazy writing just to fast track Rey into being both part Han and part Luke.

If that's all you justify it on, that's lazy writing.

Isn't he a special agent of MI-6? It's better assumed that he's had some kind of training, probably military. Now if Bond was just depicted as some average homeless dude off the streets that hopped into helicopters or jets, and shooting down enemy targets with ease, with no explanation before or after that would be an example of some weak writing.
I think Rey does express knowledge or familiarity of the Falcon by calling it a "piece of junk" so you think, "oh, she may have worked on it or flew it before." But then she and Finn both act surprised they can do anything with it, so it feels like that invalidates the previous comment.

If for some reason Rey starts using an American accent off and on in Rise of Skywalker, I wonder if that will get a pass to because it was Leia did the same thing in A New Hope?

In hindsight I thought it was bullshit that Luke never finished the training and Yoda's just like, "Nah, you already have what you need to know." That was extremely lazy on Lucas's part for ROTJ. How hard would it have been to just re-write this scene as Luke having visited Yoda in-between the events of ESB and the beginning of ROTJ?
When the Porgs help take down the First Order's army I think that will be okay too, because there's precedence for it with the Ewoks in the OT.

stvn1974

I agree, wanting to hang out with your friends instead of doing chores isn't the same as killing people or turning your back on family/galaxy because you are having a temper tantrum.

Mike86