Solid Snake

You're reading too much to what I'm saying. I don't like hook hand man Aquaman cuz of the visual. And it hasn't aged well. Maybe that's just a lot of the 1990s for me personally.

Batman had an easier time killing/changing his pop culture presence due to the times. Today? Media has developed in a fashion that pop culture is much stronger and resonating in the mindset. Aquaman is a joke in it. They'd need a great vision for him. And some damn amazing marketing.

Again...WB doesn't have an inhouse visionary for it. GL failing is such a thing. And I LOVED the idea of a GL film.

Dragon Tattoo

You people take this comic fanboy shit to ridiculous lengths sometimes. "No, only I know who Wonder Woman is! Casuals have no way of knowing her"

Everyone in America knows who the fuck WW is. You're never going to ask someone on the street "Do you know who Wonder Woman is?" and have them say no. And anyone born in the 70s- early 80s knows her name is Diana.

Mike86

Right because who wants any back story or anything silly like that? Just throw a bunch of characters on screen together and have them fighting shit for a couple hours and hope it works. That's the best way to approach this obviously. I don't think people like Taffer or I are saying casual fans should be expected to know the deep histories of the characters but some introduction via a solo movie isn't a bad way to start off.

Dragon Tattoo

Are you replying to the correct post...?

Mike86

Yeah, I've been agreeing with a lot of the things he's said and share some of his views. I get tired of people acting like just because it's a comic the source material isn't as important or something. Casual audiences don't need to know everything and anything about characters but some back story doesn't hurt one bit.

Dragon Tattoo

I have no idea what you're talking about. The only point I was arguing was taffer's ridiculous argument that general audiences don't know who WW is.

taffer

Pot meet kettle...


Exactly. Its not that you have to have a deep knowledge of the history, but some history is important. Its like I said before, just having Batman or Superman on-screen punching the bad guy for two hours straight is boring. You need the Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent stories too. They add a necessary depth. Otherwise you end up with a Michael Bay type of movie with big flashy explosions and nothing else.


No, the general audience doesn't really know "know" Wonder Woman. They may recognize her costume and her powers, but that's basically it. That's not really "knowing" Wonder Woman though. That's like saying Batman is just a dude in a bat costume. There's more to Batman than that.

And despite your statement to the contrary, I really doubt many people know her name is Diana. How can you really "know" someone if you don't even know their name.

Mike86

Right but the point I was making is that people know who she is because they may recognize how she looks (same goes for other characters) but don't necessarily know much about her. Pretty sure that was the same point that he was making not that no one knows who she is at all.

Dragon Tattoo

Considering the fact that she has like five origins, I can hardly blame them.

RocShemp

Dunno if this was posted already (the article is a month old) but I found it interesting.

So at least this tells me the movie wont be bogged down with another origin story. Batman already exists and has been at this for a long time when he meets Superman.

RocShemp

Let's ignore that this fanfilm is supposed to take place after TDKR (the tone is far too goofy to exist in the same universe) and just be amused by silly comic book antics:

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/kmLXTFWgX2s?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Be warned, the acting is horrible. So horrible it's hilarious.

Michael Corvin

Exactly. If you showed this picture to random people on the street, I'd say 9 out of 10 could name the 5 on the left.



And yes, to the average person GL is second tier. How many copies of GL sell monthly? 50k? 75k? Peanuts in the scope of movies, games, toys, overall merchandising, etc. How many kids chose to dress as Green Lantern for Halloween? I probably don't have to tell you how many GL's I saw Halloween night.

Hawkeye, Fury and Black Widow still have no back story to my recollection. They work fine. They aren't the focal point of the Avengers. The same will be the case for a film starring Superman and Batman. Does WW's origin matter when she's working with Bats and Supes to take out the villain? Same for Flash or Aquaman? Is knowing Aquaman is Atlantean relevant to solving a worldwide threat? Point is, origin story or not, everyone plays second fiddle to Superman and Batman.

Mike86

We clearly have different views on this but even so, Fury was set up somewhat at least. We don't know his origin but he didn't just pop up in The Avengers he had been introduced in Iron Man and his role got progressively bigger. Same goes for Black Widow she wasn't really given a lot of backstory but she was still introduced in Iron Man 2 and didn't just show up. Hawkeye is pretty much the character who didn't really do anything prior to The Avengers he was only in Thor very briefly.

The difference with those characters too though is that even though they are somewhat major characters they aren't as big as the main four Avengers. Making a Justice League film but only introducing Batman and Superman on film would be like if Marvel made The Avengers but only made an Iron Man movie and didn't bother with the other three. The same thing applies to the Justice League. The group consists of at least Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, and The Flash. To only introduce Batman and Superman prior to the actual film would be kind of lame.

Also why necessarily does everyone have to play second fiddle to Batman and Superman? I get that they're the most well known and popular but if that's the case then why would a Justice League movie even be contemplated? It seems pretty silly to just make a film using the characters but they apparently don't really matter anyways.

taffer

Yeah, that was bad. I want my 7 minutes back. Jason Todd as Red Hood makes zero sense in the Nolanverse considering Batman never had a Robin and Joker was never Red Hood either.


But as I explained in post #1407, there is a difference between recognizing someone based upon their physical appearance and actually knowing someone's character. That's a big BIG difference. 9 out of 10 people definitely don't know Wonder Woman beyond her physical appearance.


Tiers aren't based on what the average person thinks. Otherwise Iron Man was second tier up until the MCU. Heck, if tiers were based on what the average person thinks Wolverine would be tier one and every other mutant would be tier two or below.

Kids dressing up for Halloween is a silly comparison. Kids jump on the current fad. Fads are short lived. What is the fad this season won't be the same as next season.


The difference is that Fury isn't an Avenger. His role was minimal. Hawkeye and Black Widow really are second tier characters, so they don't need as extensive of a backstory as Hulk, Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor. Those four big-hitters did get extensive backstories in previous movies.

Aquaman, Green Lantern, Flash, and Wonder Woman are NOT second tier. They need extensive backstories just like Hulk, Iron Man, Cap, and Thor. Martian Manhunter (or Cyborg if they use the New 52 as the basis for the movie) is the second tier in that group and the only one that doesn't need much backstory (like Hawkeye and Black Widow).

Michael Corvin

I get that, but my question remains, how does WW's Greek origin really impact her crime fighting in the present in a team movie? Same for Aquaman or Flash's backstory. What is gained from that information? I'm just saying people aren't going to be slackjawed wondering who the fuck the chick in the red & yellow bustier or the guy in the red suit with the lightning bolt is if they just turned up on screen. I mean you guys are making it sound like people would walk out of the theater completely confused with these "unknown" characters.

I'm asking this as a person who doesn't follow any of these characters. I don't need a 6 hour primer to enjoy or 'get' these characters. They are known properties. Stand alone movies would be cool if done right, but I'm pretty sure I could still appreciate them in Justice League without the primer.

Mike86

The thing is if Warner and DC ultimately want to do more with these characters and this universe which it seems like they want to it's necessary to build that up in my opinion. That's why back story for these characters is needed otherwise we're just given a movie with a bunch of characters that no one really knows or cares about and it will just be another forgotten film in a couple years after it's made. Sure a Justice League movie just being made would be cool in and of itself but if they're going to do it they should do it right and not just make it because they want to try and ride in on the success that Marvel had with The Avengers. I think a big part of why that film worked so well is the fact that we did get the individual stories of those characters before the team up film and now they're established so that those characters can continue on in their own solo adventures. In the long term it just makes more sense.

taffer

Well for one thing, a lot of the banter between characters will likely fly over your head if you don't know much about the characters.

For example, The Avengers made jokes about Captain America not knowing modern pop culture (but hey he knew the flying monkey joke from The Wizard of Oz!). If you didn't know Cap's history, that banter wouldn't make sense to you.

Or the banter between Tony Stark and Bruce Banner where Tony is jokingly trying to get Bruce mad by tasing him and other stuff. If you didn't know Hulk's history, you wouldn't get that either.

nando820

Just realized this movie is called "Batman vs Superman" first we need the thread tittle changed and two it kinda sucks Superman is been a secondary character in his own sequel. I have no hope on this movie and I did like Man of Steel

robin2099

You realize that you can introduce the characters in Justice League right? All you need is a scene where Batman and Superman are finding members to recruit and their origins are said. It worked perfectly well for Justice League when it debuted, and they only had 50 minutes to tell the story.

They don't have to introduce them before to do something with them. It would be perfectly possible to introduce them in Justice League, and then spin their movies off of that.

redrum

This is not officially titled Batman vs. Superman or vice versa

Maxflier

Is there even a script yet? How do you know Superman will be a secondary character?

RocShemp

Yeah, Batman vs. Superman is simply what the media has taken to calling it. I doubt that's even the working title.

Mike86

It's a lot of back story if you're only setting up Batman and Superman prior to a Justice League film to do properly. So yeah if they want to half ass it then by all means go about it that way. If they want to do it and make it effective they'll take their time with it. Personally I'd much rather they take the time with it.

Plus honestly if you're referring to the Bruce Timm Justice League series that's a lot different than a live action film. For one thing while the initial pilot episode was only fifty minutes long they still had two seasons of the regular series plus another two seasons of Justice League Unlimited to fill in any back story for those characters. The live action movie has around two hours to basically do it all and nothing but a potential sequel to build on afterwards if they do it the way you're suggesting.

Michael Corvin

I just find it odd that some are unwilling to concede even a 1% chance that this could work another way than the approach Marvel took. It's either the Marvel way or it will suck, which is absurd.

RocShemp

It's not that another approach wont work. Honestly, I think an Ocean's 11 approach to the Justice League on film would be a fantastic idea. Superman is the figurehead and Batman has all the data on every superhero he's secretly kept tabs on. Then they use Batman's data as a "shopping list" of the people they need for whatever the big threat might be.

However, the DC corporate mentality (mentioned earlier in this thread) is what has people afraid that whatever DC cooks up on their own might suck.